Engine oil

[mangkor]

FYI, I have been involved with BMW since 1994 where BMW Malaysia still does not exist. It’s a long story where I have been working in various departments in AB - in assembly plant in Shah Alam, service center in Sg Besi and later in AB head office in Glenmarie. I resigned in 2004 before joining another BMW dealership few months back..

Bro, it’s not a theory. The engine oil loss issue has incurred since M52 engines, but that time was not so critical since M52 is using thicker engine oil viscosity. Only with newer engine that specifying low viscosity..

BTW, it’s not R52 engine, it’s N52 accurately…

With magnesium engine block now days, the issue becomes much tangible. Not much 5 series has this magnesium block in our market, most of them is aluminum. That’s the way the statement “95% of new 5 series have no such problems”

Talking about magnesium, there is one dark side of it although magnesium is lighter and stronger than aluminum. Last time, BMW employs a magnesium rocker cover (or valve cover) on M50 engines to reduce the engine weight. This is a crap where most of the head covers get badly corroded coz magnesium are much susceptible to corrosion compare to aluminum. Mebbe that’s why they ‘improved’ to plastic head cover to later M52 engines…

So, do you think what I’m thinking?

Any technical data regarding technical spec, operating fluids, tightening torque, repair instruction, recall campaign, etc is supplied by BMW AG thru BMW TIS (Technical Information System). Latest version is ISTA..

This is for internal use only within BMW dealerships. That’s explains why it was not shown to you.

Oh brudder, no way I can provide enuff and proper explanations to your question.

BMW Malaysia just can’t simply tell this and that without gathering all information and analysis on the current issue. This may take some time as the process and procedure are to be carried out meticulously so that it may be used to improve the product quality in the future. In the mean time, you as a customer should be given a feedback for the sake to jaga the customer relationship. Then, only general statement is given since they don’t want to get caught as statements will always can be used against it.

I beg your understanding in here. My statement is just worth 2 cents, doesn’t reflect an official statement from authorized BMW personnel but rather as an individual unbiased opinion based on my experience. Period..

 

[mangkor]

Finally, the engine oil level gauge in iDrive..the warning comes on when it is at a minimum but to add just 1 L of oil. Does it mean it has just dropped 1 L and not truly down to the minimum? If so, why did it not just drop a bar before prompting?

On traditional way, we measure the engine oil level via the dipstick. Recommended every morning before we start the engine we check the engine oil level. The engine oil should between the two marks on the dipstick. In general, the different between the two min-max or hi-low is approx 1 liter.

This engine oil level should be kept within the specified quantity so that it has enuff lubricant in the engine lubrication system so that it sufficient to circulate to the every and whole moving components.

Meaning let say the engine requires 4 liters of oil during oil service. If the quantity decreased about 1 liter, the engine might not have enuff lubrication to protect it from friction and heat. Simply, we need to keep the oil level sufficient at all times.

Newer engine has the dipstick deleted. No way we can check the actual oil level rather than relying on the on-board electronics...

This is another headache... most of BMW owner does not understand message given by the BC...

I had seen one S'porean car towed to my workshop with exhaust smoking just like it has a Yamaha RXZ 2-stroke motorcycle engine beneath the engine hood...

That poor fella told me that he was warned the engine oil is low. He added one liter engine oil but the warning keep on telling the engine oil is low. He keeps on adding up until the warning goes off. Later he found out white smoke is tailing from behind as he is driving on the highway

We drained the engine oil and measured it has 5.7liters... omigoshhh... that's almost doubled the filling quantity! The engine now flooded by it's own oil... He forgot to add oil and wait until the BC to updates the oil level reading…

There are some cases where the oil level sensor does not give you the appropriate reading – hence the oil level is inaccurate.

The car should be parked at flat and level ground to get accurate reading. Most of the cases where the customer complaint the oil level is low, but upon checking the level is OK. It's the proper way to check, not by letting you get confused by the warning messages ending up with messy judgment..

 

[yellowmanta]

Hi mangkor,
That's very comprehensive explanation for the missing oil that some 5'ers experience. If your statement that the permissible oil consumption is 1l/1600km, then in my case where the oil warning light came on every 3000km +/-, it'd appear to be normal? But then again, based on a 25000km service interval, that would mean that I would have had to top up at least 8x during that period! And based on what some forumers say they have been charged for each top up ie. RM70 per litre, that would be RM560 just for top ups alone. And then by that time, with the frequent topping up with new oil, wouldn't the engine oil be 'refreshed' all the time? Maybe that's how the car can support such a long service interval....
I still find it hard to accept that an engine as modern and hi-tech as that in our car is consuming oil at such an alarming rate. Having to top up at intervals of say 10000k would be acceptable, certainly not every 1600km if your info is correct. Infact at that rate, that would have required at least 15 top ups in between each service intervals of 25000km! Or RM1,050! Just doesn't sound logical at all.
Anyway now that I've done the heart transplant, lets monitor and see what's the oil consumption rate is going to be like. If it improves from the 3000km that I used to experience, then certainly it means there was really something wrong with the engine and the transplant was necessary.
Cheers

 

[t2ribena]

mangkor...

one question? you mentioned that the engine block is made entirely of magnesium and does this includes the cylinder sleeve as well?

i don't think any manufacturer has come up with 100% magnesium crankcase/engine block yet which in this case has a magnesium cylinder sleeve since magnesium does not have a good thermal conductivity properties thus not suitable for this application...

since you mentioned the issue with M52 engines, IMHO this was a different issue than the missing oil issue in N52 engines...in the M52 engines BMW had adopted the high tech Nikasil cylinder head liners that has a weak point that it is very sensitive to high sulfur content fuel...over time the liners got corroded and causes blowbys which causes loss of power and engine oil consumption at higher rate than normal...on the N52's engine BMW uses the Alusil aluminium + silicon alloy to address this issue due to sulfur corrosion...

 

[RoyalFlush]

Yellow Manta, I trust they did the same for your car as they did for mine when trying to diagnose the problem with high engine oil 'consumption'. Compression tests OK but yet problem occurs right? How about the 1000km followed by measurement of the engine oil level test - did your car fail that? If so, do you mind giving me some details of how much the oil level dropped? I'm doin that currently..under 400km to go before bringing her into AB. Thanks !

 

[mangkor]

Dear Yellowmanta,

If the theory regarding oil top up frequency is truly make sense, yes it is. Its sounds very unfair for the customer to spend more for top ups instead of the whole engine oil change.

Based on my observations, most of the top-ups usually take not more than 3 times within the specified oil service intervals. Meaning the intervals between the top-ups is divided into sub 8,000km. We can conclude that the oil consumption rate is far far away from maximum permissible tolerance.

In isolated cases, it is quite alarming that you need to top-up the engine oil so frequent.

In this case, that’s why we need to conduct oil consumption test as described. By this way, we can certain that the high engine oil consumption is not due to worn out main engine components such piston rings, leaky valve stem seal and so on.

If all test result does not lead to indication of defective engine parts, so we can narrow down to few other criteria that may cause the problem.

One of the problem could be defective engine oil level sensor that giving inaccurate reading hence wrong info relayed to the receiver. Change the oil level sensor and problem solved and you’re happy ever after…

In this subjective matter, we can certify that engine oil life is solely determined by the control units that continuously monitor the engine oil. The 25,000km oil service interval can be shorten (means it does not reach that point) accordingly to few factors such as the driving style, the weather and time frame. If you’re always drive the car fast like a racer, it will shorten the oil service life. If the car was driven in a very hot climate, it will reduce the service life too. And, the beauty part… the engine oil level sensor can also monitor the engine oil quality.

It’s not really means if you top-up frequently, you have refreshed the engine oil quality so that it can last for specified oil service interval. The rational is, you cannot make a plain water clear if you pour it in a glass that already have a bit of milk or coffee.

Now days, BMW high tech engine has a better output – bigger horsepower and stronger torque in relative to the engine displacement. In contrary, this means the engine is working harder than normal engines. For M cars, for instead, they had a dream engine installed with hefty horsepower at incredible amount of torque. By design, these high power engine inherent a drawback of higher engine oil consumption.

For comparison, I had a car which I change the engine oil on every 10,000km although the manufacturer says that the oil service interval should be at 7,000km if using a fully synthetic engine oil.

The engine does not need oil to-up for the whole engine oil interval if I use the car for daily driving i.e. to work, weekend outings, jalan² cari makan and so on.

BUT, if I drove the car for high speed in a long journey, I noticed the engine oil level decreased and need to top-up.

And for comparison, if I’m using a Shell Helix Plus (semi synthetic), the oil consumption rate is stable (no need to top-up even for long haul high speed driving) . It just happened if I’m using a Castrol Magnatec (also a semi synthetic).

Maybe thicker viscosity in Shell Helix (15W50) gives me better result than Castrol Magnatec (10W40). For then, I just stick to Shell Helix Plus till now…

I hope your baby doesn’t need to have a heart transplant. The car should be in your hands where you happily can drive it everywhere you wanted, not lying in the workshop at this moment giving you headache and lost of hope and confident....

I really hope for it…

 

[mangkor]

mangkor...

one question? you mentioned that the engine block is made entirely of magnesium and does this includes the cylinder sleeve as well?

i don't think any manufacturer has come up with 100% magnesium crankcase/engine block yet which in this case has a magnesium cylinder sleeve since magnesium does not have a good thermal conductivity properties thus not suitable for this application...

since you mentioned the issue with M52 engines, IMHO this was a different issue than the missing oil issue in N52 engines...in the M52 engines BMW had adopted the high tech Nikasil cylinder head liners that has a weak point that it is very sensitive to high sulfur content fuel...over time the liners got corroded and causes blowbys which causes loss of power and engine oil consumption at higher rate than normal...on the N52's engine BMW uses the Alusil aluminium + silicon alloy to address this issue due to sulfur corrosion...

En. Ribena,

Nikasil was used starting with M52 engines. It's a process where I think they apply that material directly into cylinder bore like anodizing or electroplating since I didn't see a clear transition area that clearly separate the engine block and cylinder liner (which means it was made in two different component).

I feels that the process also justify that the engine block cannot rebore since rebore process will take away that particular Nikasil layer.

I'm sorry I don't have the fact sheet regarding magnesium block construction. To justify what, how, which..etc, I need to dig even further into BMW service info.

Just be patient pls... once I got it, I will share it with ya all...

see ya...

 

[yellowmanta]

RoyalFlush,
Yes, I had the exact same problem as yours. Failed the test after the 1000km interval. SA told me that the oil consumption rate was just outside what was permissible. if I recall something like 0.6l per 1000km. Almost like the 1l per 1600km quoted by Mangkor. So as a result I was told they had to order the necessary parts to replace the engine block, piston rings and a host of ancillary parts. Waiting for the parts took almost a month and then another 10 days for them to swap out the parts. If and when you do have to send in your car for the transplant, do insist on a courtesy car!
mangkor,
Thanks for the further explanation tho I must say it does sound too technical for a layman like me. Bottomline is I've had to do the transplant already and is now observing the oil consumption to see if it's better now or not.
Cheers

 

[DMeNS]

wow.....too technical lar the thing u ppl toked about! I cant understand but heards from mangkor it should be possible? 1L for 1600km? Mati lar like tat, if its true then i wont wanna buy bimmers dy. How can u take it when driving a minimum RM300k car then suddently the message pop up and u have to start refilling? Drive back to workshop or keep a spare 1L in ur car? Thats too much lar. I pay so much to enjoy the driving, not to worry so much when I hav to travel far and wonder when the message gonna pop-up. :stupid: For me, if AB did a heart transplant for me, i assume and pretty sure theres definately not normal! If normal, what for they did the heart transplant? If only they r too free and ntg to do. By mean, good services!! But NO!! Their after-sale service are seriously rated a NO NO for me. Whoever have the same problem as mine, I strongly recommend them to send their car in for a full test and demand them to do a transplant! For those who think thats normal, good luck and I hope the timebomb (message popping up) will not test too much of ur patience. Sigh.....wonder hows my car now? The smell must be there since I was away till now and the carpet is still wet. Zzzz...

 

[DMeNS]

Yea, forget to mention, thanx a lot mangkor for all the input! Finally theres some technical ppl here who can giv us a better explanation compared to BMW. Anyway, just did the heart transplant and will follow up with u guys see if the problems still arise (if im not selling this car soon enuf, see broken dy). Cheers!

 

[mangkor]

RoyalFlush,
Yes, I had the exact same problem as yours. Failed the test after the 1000km interval. SA told me that the oil consumption rate was just outside what was permissible. if I recall something like 0.6l per 1000km. Almost like the 1l per 1600km quoted by Mangkor. So as a result I was told they had to order the necessary parts to replace the engine block, piston rings and a host of ancillary parts. Waiting for the parts took almost a month and then another 10 days for them to swap out the parts. If and when you do have to send in your car for the transplant, do insist on a courtesy car!
mangkor,
Thanks for the further explanation tho I must say it does sound too technical for a layman like me. Bottomline is I've had to do the transplant already and is now observing the oil consumption to see if it's better now or not.
Cheers

To be exact 0.7L/1000km... (quoted 1L/1600km to give you an alternate conversion rate)

I believe your car shud be better than before after the transplant...

I always believe in honest open communication (valuable advice from my Kwai Loh customer). With open honest communication, we can have a very close relationship and trust. That's why I did not hesitate to relay any information which I reckon shud be made known by the end user although my employer instructed me not to make any statement.

Although the facts are very disappointing, the true word is "nothing is perfect in this world"! Of course the manufacturer has their best to ensure high quality standards as expected from the brand, it is a tough task to achieve.

 

[t2ribena]

En. Ribena,

Nikasil was used starting with M52 engines. It's a process where I think they apply that material directly into cylinder bore like anodizing or electroplating since I didn't see a clear transition area that clearly separate the engine block and cylinder liner (which means it was made in two different component).

I feels that the process also justify that the engine block cannot rebore since rebore process will take away that particular Nikasil layer.

I'm sorry I don't have the fact sheet regarding magnesium block construction. To justify what, how, which..etc, I need to dig even further into BMW service info.

Just be patient pls... once I got it, I will share it with ya all...

see ya...

Nikasil is normally electrodeposited onto another material...with this coating BMW can use aluminium engine cylinders with the aluminium cylinders sleeve which is normally not possible and a cast iron cylinders is used instead...

i think BMW stop using Nikasil coatings on M52TU itself and replaces it with more robust Alusil for the cylinders sleeve where with this material it allows the cylinders to be without the typical liners which makes the close tolerance engine possible...unlike Nikasil which is coating technology, Alusil is a type of Aluminium alloy which has the silicon as the alloy material.

for the N52 magnesium crankcase, the Alusil cylinders sleeve with the cooling duct for water coolant is cast into the magnesium crankcase...this saves the weight when compare to making the whole crankcase Alusil instead.

 

[thule]

I'm sorry... looks like I am facing a potential serious problem here... the E60 M-Sport that I'd booked from Beemer has the new N52 Magnesium engine! The fact that Beemer only gives one (1) month warranty really troubles me right now.
I can't possibly clock 3000++km in just one month... what if the engine oil level dip low after the warranty expires?? I have nowhere and no one to turn to regarding this problem...
Any sifu here that can give advice? Thanks

 

[cadmus]

I had a chance to speak to my uncle over the weekend regarding his 2007 525 M-Sport and to my surprise he had been making frequent trips to AB Glen for Engine Oil topups! As usual, AB Glen said it's normal for the frequent engine oil topups. Anyone here can tell me what's the best way to push them for an engine block replacement?

1. Ask them to do an engine test first?
2. Can i throw some names of forumers that had their faulty engine block replaced at AB Glen?
3. Any technician/manager that i can see at AB Glen that has experience dealing with the makan engine oil issue?

Thanks in advance!

 

[thule]

FYI, I called the salesperson immediately after reading this thread yesterday... and voiced out my concern over this serious issue. He'd promised to check it and get back to me on Monday...
1) I have read about the 1000km test... so if the engine oil consumption is more than 0.6/1000km or more... does this mean that there's problem with the engine?
2) Does anyone here know the cost to replace the engine block? I have to prepare for the worst... apparently... sigh!

 

[thule]

FYI, I called the salesperson immediately after reading this thread yesterday... and voiced out my concern over this serious issue. He'd promised to check it and get back to me on Monday...
1) I have read about the 1000km test... so if the engine oil consumption is more than 0.6/1000km or more... does this mean that there's problem with the engine?
2) Does anyone here know the cost to replace the engine block? I have to prepare for the worst... apparently... sigh!

 

[DMeNS]

I had a chance to speak to my uncle over the weekend regarding his 2007 525 M-Sport and to my surprise he had been making frequent trips to AB Glen for Engine Oil topups! As usual, AB Glen said it's normal for the frequent engine oil topups. Anyone here can tell me what's the best way to push them for an engine block replacement?

1. Ask them to do an engine test first?
2. Can i throw some names of forumers that had their faulty engine block replaced at AB Glen?
3. Any technician/manager that i can see at AB Glen that has experience dealing with the makan engine oil issue?

Thanks in advance!

Cadmus,

By answering to your question,

1) Yes, please ask them to run a complete engine test by giving reason that have to topup too frequently and suspect something is not right.
2) They knew the problem!
3) I was taken care by Mr. Selvam @ AB Glenmarie.

cheers!

 

[yellowmanta]

FYI, I called the salesperson immediately after reading this thread yesterday... and voiced out my concern over this serious issue. He'd promised to check it and get back to me on Monday...
1) I have read about the 1000km test... so if the engine oil consumption is more than 0.6/1000km or more... does this mean that there's problem with the engine?
2) Does anyone here know the cost to replace the engine block? I have to prepare for the worst... apparently... sigh!

Hi thule,
Grab a chair and sit down before you read this ;-)
I was just at AB Segambut to collect the necessary docs to effect the change of engine no following my change of engine block. Along with the docs is an invoice detailing out all the works and charges for the engine block change - a princely sum of RM22+k! Guess that'd be the sum they'd have whacked if my car wasn't under warranty...
The guy who attended to me is Hong of the Segambut branch. I think he's about the only decent guy there who can do a better job, relatively speaking. Not a fan of the after sale service of AB, they suck.
For those affected with the same problem, as deMenS says, go for the i000km test and insist on the change if your car is still underwarranty. And don't forget to ask for a courtesy car...
Cheers

 

[thule]

Hi thule,
Grab a chair and sit down before you read this ;-)
I was just at AB Segambut to collect the necessary docs to effect the change of engine no following my change of engine block. Along with the docs is an invoice detailing out all the works and charges for the engine block change - a princely sum of RM22+k! Guess that'd be the sum they'd have whacked if my car wasn't under warranty...
The guy who attended to me is Hong of the Segambut branch. I think he's about the only decent guy there who can do a better job, relatively speaking. Not a fan of the after sale service of AB, they suck.
For those affected with the same problem, as deMenS says, go for the i000km test and insist on the change if your car is still underwarranty. And don't forget to ask for a courtesy car...
Cheers

oh my GOD!!! I think that I'm going to faint...
Yeah... I've thought of going for the 1000km test as well... as a matter of fact, I have proposed to the salesperson already. He had to ask the mgt before replying me. I will try to ask him again tomorrow...

 

[DMeNS]

Hi thule,
Grab a chair and sit down before you read this ;-)
I was just at AB Segambut to collect the necessary docs to effect the change of engine no following my change of engine block. Along with the docs is an invoice detailing out all the works and charges for the engine block change - a princely sum of RM22+k! Guess that'd be the sum they'd have whacked if my car wasn't under warranty...
The guy who attended to me is Hong of the Segambut branch. I think he's about the only decent guy there who can do a better job, relatively speaking. Not a fan of the after sale service of AB, they suck.
For those affected with the same problem, as deMenS says, go for the i000km test and insist on the change if your car is still underwarranty. And don't forget to ask for a courtesy car...
Cheers

WOW!! 22k?? Actually my warrenty expired 2 months before I sent my car in but luckily BMW Germany agreed to change my engine block for free...or else........yea ppl, please run the test and see the results first before you start to panic and remember ask for a courtesy car....so u can hav some fun with the 320I SE!!! :top: