engine oil for E90

[turbology]

I've tried a full tank of Premium, and if I'm honest with myself, I can't detect any performance difference and my FC was much the same. V-Power is supposed to be different because of a different hydrocarbon mix and more detergents. But now I'm inclined to say "Oh really?" Using Premium from now on. It's the same RON rating afterall.

Thank you
RON ratings has been confirm to be the same between Premium and V-power, as said in emails I received from Shell.
For MON ratings, as quote "MON would typically be the same for both. "
When I ask for Aromaticity content, is said to be "about 20% - 50%", but "cannot guarantee to below 30%". And "All Shell petrols including V-Power does not contain ethanol"

And I ask, why V-power cost more? I got the answer:
" V-Power is a special blend that provides better combustion and energy conversion than normal fuels. That has got little to do with RON "

"Oh really?"
I have always remain skeptical on Vee-P because I used a tank before on my relatively new 1.3 MPV back then, seriously don't feel any difference... perhaps its our insensitive butt.

I would think 1.3 MPV only retard timing when it detect knock. It probably WILL NOT advance timing even a higher RON fuel is use. Therefore, you can't see the performance increase with higher RON fuel.
For newer BMW, it has short-term and long-term Fuel Map. It will adjust itself and have more aggresive fuel map when higher RON fuel is use.
And I agree, the special blend might have clean the old engine and therefore, the driver "feel" more performance with the V-power fuel. (or maybe is psychological)
But speaking of "cleaning agent", nothing beat Caltex Techron. (try google search) Is the best so far.

Sadly, I have no luck with Caltrex in my town. It feel less "butt-power" compare to Mobil gas station I visit frequently.

 

[astroboy]

.. I would think 1.3 MPV only retard timing when it detect knock. It probably WILL NOT advance timing even a higher RON fuel is use. Therefore, you can't see the performance increase with higher RON fuel....

My little 1.3 VVTi MPV is running 10:1 compression and capable of 160+ kph on a level road in a hot sunny afternoon. I think got Advance Timing la.. ... and my tyre speed rating is only 180kph, cool ya, almost fully utilised..

 

[Schwepps]

I find myself agreeing with you a lot these days turbology...

There is always a tendency to associate RON rating with the power or energy content of the petrol, when it's only determined by the amount of anti-knock agent added to it. Previously the agent was lead, now less polluting and toxic compounds. The base unleaded gasoline (ULG) is the same, whether it's RON92, 95 or 97. Check whether your 1.3 MPV has a knock sensor and intelligent ECU, astro. If not, the timing is probably set for RON95 and it makes no difference if you use RON97. Just paying for, and burning, more anti-knock.

A well-informed forumer said to me that V-Power is produced in Shell Bukom because it's a different process. Therefore, the hydrocarbon make up may be different, possibly with a higher energy content. Hence the "special blend that provides better combustion and energy conversion than normal fuels" makes sense. Shell also plugs the detergent properties hard. I've always believed Shell to be THE company of the highest integrity in the entire O&G industry. But now I've seen a bottle with "Fully Synthetic" proudly printed on it, and then an MSDS that says it's actually a hydro-cracked G-III oil. So...out goes my belief.

 

[turbology]

My little 1.3 VVTi MPV is running 10:1 compression and capable of 160+ kph on a level road in a hot sunny afternoon. I think got Advance Timing la.. ... and my tyre speed rating is only 180kph, cool ya, almost fully utilised..

I thought we are through about 10:1 compression don't necessary mean need higher RON. :wink:

I find myself agreeing with you a lot these days turbology...

Thanks for the support
Motorsport is just a hobby. Not pro like you ... (except Astro.... )

 

[astroboy]

hehe.. no pro here neither.. just another keyboard warrior that find internet forum more fun then anything else because u can't Karate kick me for saying something wrong..

My mini VVTi MPV is recommending RON90+. So yes, it has knock sensor. Whether how advance timing I need is none other that ignition at max stroke extension. Should not be a difficult task for the ECU.

... and yes, we are through with compression ratio vs RON and we agreed that compression ratio is just one of the contributing factor for detonation other than temperature, moist density in air etc. But I think its a joke to run RON90 with a compression ratio 10:1 engine and claim it will not detonate. Yes? No?

..and Schwepps has given us evidence (as always) that Vee-P is similar RON to Premium. So its no longer a question of detonation or RON related question.

Leaner combustion? O2 sensor detecting it and extend fuel injecting time? FC up? power up? More energy release = greater energy transferred to the spinning wheels? or just end up in the coolant as excess heat absorbed away..

 

[Schwepps]

..and Schwepps has given us evidence (as always) that Vee-P is similar RON to Premium. So its no longer a question of detonation or RON related question.

Dear keyboard warrior. Let me karate kick you here. I did no such thing. V-Power has always been the same RON97 as Premium, and that has never been in contention. I said I feel no difference in power - are you confusing RON with power again?

 

[astroboy]

No..no.. we didn't associate RON with power, u said you didn't felt the extra energy claimed to exist in Vee-P... and same here. I'm just confirming your butt nerves with mine and turbology started it just because I started to talk about compression 10:1 for my little VVTi which couldn't felt the difference in between VP and P..

I use lower block! Hyaii.... yak!

 

[Schwepps]

Ahhhh! So what you meant to say is: "and Schwepps has given us evidence (as always) that Vee-P is similar energy/power to Premium." But your keyboard said: "and Schwepps has given us evidence (as always) that Vee-P is similar RON to Premium."

Your keyboard confused power with RON. I karate chop your keyboard in half! Haaii...whup!

 

[cempaka]

Seems many oil companies these days are using a bit of a loophole, where they will market a whole product line as "fully synthetic" even though only a couple particular weights are actually PAO/ester based. Or perhaps they've simply realized that no government can be bothered to challenge them on this and they're taking full advantage.

I suppose it's better not to trust any one brand too much in any case. Even if you find a good oil, formulations can change over time. Despite all the marketing the various brands do to try and inspire loyalty and warm fuzzy feelings about their products, in the end they're all big corporations who care most about making money.

 

[astroboy]

helllo! I thought u confirmed both VP and P same RON97 ma. Opps! sorry not u, turbology la... that wrote to Shell.

..RON ratings has been confirm to be the same between Premium and V-power, as said in emails I received from Shell....

So now is back to this:

...And I ask, why V-power cost more? I got the answer:
" V-Power is a special blend that provides better combustion and energy conversion than normal fuels. That has got little to do with RON "....

Why is this not felt in certain cars? and nothing to do with compression ratio since they are all RON97. It should burn leaner, thus retarding the ECU to compensate?

 

[Schwepps]

Why is this not felt in certain cars? and nothing to do with compression ratio since they are all RON97. It should burn leaner, thus retarding the ECU to compensate?

Because it's snake oil marketing? Something I thought Shell doesn't do?

 

[Schwepps]

Seems many oil companies these days are using a bit of a loophole, where they will market a whole product line as "fully synthetic" even though only a couple particular weights are actually PAO/ester based. Or perhaps they've simply realized that no government can be bothered to challenge them on this and they're taking full advantage.

Not using a bit of a loophole, cempaka, but jumping through it! In my previous research, I read that when the arbitration court awarded the case to Castrol, "lube oil marketing execs throughout the US rubbed their hands in glee and started selling G-III as fully-synth, at fully-synth prices" This happened around 1999 and only a handful of US companies didn't jump on, Exxonmobil and Amsoil being two I can remember. The rest of the world has moved more slowly over, including UK and Australia. Here in bolehland? For sure, but I thought surely not Shell and Petronas.

It is still illegal in Germany and Japan to call a G-III a fully-synth. Small wonder that Germany and Japan are the world's top car makers. The car industry in the US? Bankrupt. In the UK? Extinct. It's the high quality standards of Germany and Japan over smoke and mirrors fast buck marketing.

 

[viewfinder]

Please don't attribute that ridiculous statement to me, viewfinder! That was the statement of the stupid arbitration judge in the US, who in one sentence spoiled the whole market for all motor oil consumers the world over. Because of that statement, we're all at risk of buying what we think is fully-synth and finding out that it's mineral, even from Shell it would seem.

That's what I meant to say but I was lazy to type out the whole paragraph.

By the way I found the Q8 datasheet (and also MSDS) finally. I've been using Q8 oil for a while. The Q8 Formula Special 5W-30 has BMW LL-04 cert. And the MSDS says this "Synthetically modified mineral oil (IP 346 < 3 %)". Does this mean it's also G-III? I think so... because I found this under the Q8 F1 msds - "Poly alpha olefins and synthetically modified mineral oil".

But the Q8 F1 has only BMW Special Oil cert, which is why I'm interested to know the difference between LL vs Special Oil.

 

[Schwepps]

'Synthetically modified mineral oil' means hydrocracked mineral oil - G-III. The supporters of classifying G-III as synthetic argued that further refining mineral oil in a cracking process in the presense of hydrogen, could be considered a synthesizing process. The judge unfortunately concurred, although there were lots of sound arguments against it, including from a Nobel prize winning chemist.

So Q8 Formula Special is a G-III and Q8 F1 is a semi-synthetic - G-IV and G-III typically in a 30-70 mix, but there is no defined formula. There are some 'semi-synthetics' which are 100% G-III, but as the additives are synthesized hydrocarbons, the blender calls it a semi. PAO is very expensive, so all this is done to maximise profit.

I'm guessing, but BMW Special Oil is probably below LL98, LL01 and LL04. It would be great if you can find the BMW spec details for all these and post them. Also great if you can find the latest list of BMW approved oils, for that will show the oils which are truly G-IV and BMW tested, not those which just slap on a LL-xx compliance on the label.

 

[Schwepps]

Here you go viewfinder,' BMW special oil':

2.0 Engine oil grades / viscosity grades

BMW specifies different grades of engine oil, depending on the engine and vehicle model. Specifications
or descriptions other than those given here, for example "high lubricity oil, fully synthetic" etc. bear no
relevance to their suitability for use in engines of the BMW Group.

Longlife-04 oils
These have been developed to guarantee an optimum service life for the particulate filter in diesel
engines. These oils are stipulated for all diesel engines with particulate filter, but may also be used in
almost all other BMW engines. Like Longlife-01 and Longlife-01 FE oils, they satisfy currently BMW's
most stringent quality requirements. Longlife-04 oils must not be used in BMW spark-ignition engines in
countries outside Europe (EU plus Switzerland, Norway and Liechtenstein).

Longlife-01 oils
The quality of these oils is comparable to that of Longlife-04 and Longlife-01 FE oils and these oils can
be used in most BMW engines.

Longlife-01 FE oils
Because of their particularly low viscosity, these oils are able to favourably influence fuel consumption.
However, they are only to be used in engines that have been specially designed to run with such lowviscosity
oils (spark-ignition engines with Valvetronic).

Longlife-98 oils
Satisfy specific requirements for extended oil change intervals that were introduced in 1998. Their quality
is no longer adequate for the current range of spark-ignition and diesel engines.

Special oils:
With one exception, these are no longer listed, but may still be used for vehicles with oil change interval
up to 15,000 km.

ACEA specifications
For older vehicles, oils may still be used that are not expressly listed but which satisfy the following
specifications:
Spark-ignition engines: A2/B2, A3/B3 or A3/B4
Diesel engines: A3/B3 or A3/B4

Information concerning oils for initial running or running in:
No special running-in oils are used in BMW engines. For this reason, the oil specifications given also
apply to filling or topping up oil in new, reconditioned or exchange engines before the 1st oil service.

Viscosity grades
Viscosity measures the oil's ability to flow. It is highly dependent on the temperature of the oil, i.e. the
higher the temperature, the lower the viscosity. Likewise, the oil temperature is dependent on various
factors, for example on the ambient temperature in which the vehicle is operated.
When the outside temperature is low, the oil must not be too viscous, so as to ensure that all the
lubrication points are supplied quickly with oil when the engine is cold. When oil or engine temperatures
are high, the oil must possess a certain minimum viscosity, so that an adequately thick lubricating film is
built up.

Modern multigrade oils combine good low-temperature characteristics with adequate lubrication at high
oil temperatures, preventing the need for a suitable viscosity grade to be selected and oil to be changed
purely on a seasonal basis.

If engine oils complying with Enclosure 3 are used, the following rules apply for the selection of a suitable
viscosity grade:

BMW longlife oils:
Spark-ignition engines: A2/B2, A3/B3 or A3/B4
Diesel engines: A3/B3 or A3/B4
WebTIS Page 1 sur 2
https://oss-prod.bmw-serviceweb.de/web_root/modules/webtis/show_doc/doc.html?infoobj_id=1104... 14/12/2005
BMW longlife oils, as specified for all BMW vehicles since 1998, are tested by BMW to ensure that they
can be used anywhere in the world, at any time of year, regardless of ambient temperature. If BMW
longlife oils are used, it is therefore not necessary to keep a check on the viscosity grade. The exception
is the M47TÜ2: for SAE 5W-X oils there is a lower temperature limit of -20°C. Cold-starting difficulties
may occur at lower temperatures. In countries where outside temperatures frequently fall below -20°C,
we therefore recommend 0W instead of 5W products. BMW Longlife oils are only available in the
viscosity grades SAE 0W-30, SAE 0W-40, SAE 5W-30 and SAE 5W-40.

BMW special oils:
SAE 0W-X and SAE 5W-X oils (X can mean 30, 40, 50 or 60) can be used all year round anywhere in
the world any ambient temperature. For SAE 10W-X oils there is a lower temperature limit of -20°C.
Cold-starting difficulties may occur at lower temperatures.

ACEA specification:
The most suitable viscosity grade should be selected using the viscosity/temperature diagram. Here
again, making the right choice will avoid the need for purely seasonal oil changes (e.g. SAE 15W-40 for
Central Europe). The temperature limits shown in the diagram may be exceeded for a short time. If the
upper temperature limit is exceeded, high engine speeds and loads over a prolonged period should be
avoided. If the lower temperature limit is exceeded, difficulties may be experienced in starting a cold
engine.

 

[turbology]

...And I ask, why V-power cost more? I got the answer:
" V-Power is a special blend that provides better combustion and energy conversion than normal fuels. That has got little to do with RON "....

Why is this not felt in certain cars? and nothing to do with compression ratio since they are all RON97. It should burn leaner, thus retarding the ECU to compensate?

You forget the -> *rolleyes*
I mean I disagree with the last email statement from Shell. Is just marketing talks from Shell.
Special blend that provide better combustion.... HA! prove it!
Everyone know that, with higher RON, advantage TIMING, you get better efficient. Nothing to do with so call "blend"

 

[meinauto]

btw, from what i was told, BMW's recommended service interval has been reduced to 10k km. Those with BSRI, oil is covered but need to pay to labour or something like that

 

[astroboy]

I don't think its true because if it is, they should inform all those with un-expired BSRI in writing.

I even presented a bulletin published by BMW AG that says oil change must be done if hit 12 months despite low mileage, they (BMW Malaysia) also can buat tak tau and push the responsibility to the service dealer while service dealer says no directive from BMW Malaysia, so they can't claim. We are caught in between and are taking us for a ride la!

Anyway, I too hope its true. Those who have similar info or confirmation, please keep us updated. Thanks!

 

[meinauto]

I don't think its true because if it is, they should inform all those with un-expired BSRI in writing.

I even presented a bulletin published by BMW AG that says oil change must be done if hit 12 months despite low mileage, they (BMW Malaysia) also can buat tak tau and push the responsibility to the service dealer while service dealer says no directive from BMW Malaysia, so they can't claim. We are caught in between and are taking us for a ride la!

Anyway, I too hope its true. Those who have similar info or confirmation, please keep us updated. Thanks!

I have the flyer which was given and explained to me by a SA. Think they are keeping this low key for obvious reasons. Nothing like admitting that engine sludging in BMWs is a problem

 

[glock_8]

I have the flyer which was given and explained to me by a SA. Think they are keeping this low key for obvious reasons. Nothing like admitting that engine sludging in BMWs is a problem

Is the flyer officially produced by BMW? I just called Sapura Auto to confirm about the 10k free lube service and the answer is no.

Which Service centre that u mentioned? is it ingress?