engine oil for E90

[E46Fanatic]

But our cars need BMW LL-04 rite? The valvetronic certified oil, which should reduce the chances of sludge in our engines.

 

[Schwepps]

Not really bro. LL04 has more to do with meeting 2005 European emission standards than anything else and was introduced in 2004 particularly for BMW diesels with diesel particulate filters (DPF). Of course there's no harm in moving up to LL04 if you can find/afford it, because it's backward compatible.

Just like paying for 0W oil, do we really need it in this country? A quality LL01 5W-30 or 5W-40 is good enough really. The base oil stock is the same stuff, the rest is just more, or more costly, tweaking additives.

 

[E46Fanatic]

You are right. LL04 is not meant to be used outside of European countries.. Hmm.. no wonder so hard to find.

Longlife-04 oils
These have been developed to guarantee an optimum service life for the particulate filter in diesel
engines. These oils are stipulated for all diesel engines with particulate filter, but may also be used in
almost all other BMW engines. Like Longlife-01 and Longlife-01 FE oils, they satisfy currently BMW's
most stringent quality requirements. Longlife-04 oils must not be used in BMW spark-ignition engines in
countries outside Europe (EU plus Switzerland, Norway and Liechtenstein).

http://www.motul-oil.co.uk/pdfs/specific-engine-oil/Specific_LL-04_5W40_TDS_(GB).pdf

 

[Schwepps]

Longlife-04 oils must not be used in BMW spark-ignition engines in
countries outside Europe (EU plus Switzerland, Norway and Liechtenstein).

That's a drastic statement to make and I believe has more to do with diesel fuel quality outside EU. I don't think it's applicable to gasoline engines, 'spark-ignition' not withstanding. The base poly-alphaolefin is the same stuff la! PAO is PAO. There's no such thing as LL01 or LL04 PAO from an Exxon or Shell plant.

It's safe to use LL04 in your sweetheart if you can find it. But IMHO a waste of money, when you can get Helix Ultra LL01 from any ole Shell station down the road.

 

[astroboy]

What about LL-01 then? Would any Group 4 oil qualify themselves as LL-01 oil? If we stick to a 10k km oil change interval, does the LL as in LongLife still matter?

 

[turbology]

What about LL-01 then? Would any Group 4 oil qualify themselves as LL-01 oil? If we stick to a 10k km oil change interval, does the LL as in LongLife still matter?

I can tell you that. The answer is no.
But in order to meet LL01, it need to surpass a certain standard of HTHS, Viscosity, NOACK requirement.
So, you know you are using a good oil as long as it meet LL01 standard.

 

[Schwepps]

I would agree with turbology again. If you change at 10-12k, LL spec isn't really necessary. And even a good G-III would be fine. There's nothing wrong with G-III, it's highly refined mineral oil and the vast majority of cars run on them here and worldwide. Just see through the marketing hype and know what it is you're paying for, that's all.

A G-III or G-IV base oil is homogeneous from a refinery or plant. It's the additives that determine the properties such as HTHS, viscosity, etc to give you the various grades of oil. Eg, the difference between a 0W-30, 5W-30, 5W-40 is only in the hydrocarbon viscosity modifier added to the base oil by the blender. It's the same base oil.

Any good oil of reputable brand will be adequate if you're not anal about it and change often. More important to avoid buying a ciplak oil which may have recycled or adulterated portions.

 

[astroboy]

...A G-III or G-IV base oil is homogeneous from a refinery or plant...

This is the 2nd time I'm hearing/seeing this. One lub reseller told me the cost in producing semi-synthetic (G-III) and fully synthetic (G-IV) is the same, so why pay 2x or 3x more for the G-IV? That fella until now still using semi-synthetic because it's insane for him to pay the extra for something that cost the same to produce.

What he's missing is the few drops of additive or hydrocarbon modifier that would perhaps cost a lot more than the base product? that allow the price tag to double or triple?

So Helix Ultra LL-01 eh?! Will drop by Schwepps's regular kiosk to check it out.. its a pain to know the 5w-40 will be a real potong steam on the performance of my 4-potter..

And I thought only F1 car teams need to go thru this performance/durability trade-off decision.. ~sigh!:62:

 

[cempaka]

Astroboy, if having Group IV base is important to you, do keep in mind Shell Helix Ultra 5w-40 is also Group III base stock.

http://www.epc.shell.com/Docs/GSAP_msds_00020782.PDF (Under chapter 3)

Still a very good oil regardless, but I wouldn't want you to spend a bomb on something and have it not be exactly what you thought it was.

More important anyways is the LL-01 certification, which shows the high performance modern G-III oils are capable of. (As far as I can tell, the whole thing about BMW LL-01 spec requiring Group IV stock is just an internet myth.) I'd personally still stick to 10-15k oil changes though, while LL oils do have high shear resistance, there's still contamination from petrol and particulate matter to reduce even the best oil's effectiveness over time.

 

[viewfinder]

Good info above. Question is, what does "BMW Special Oil" certification mean then? If one compares that vs BMW LL-01 (or any LL-xx), what's the difference? Both are labeled 'fully' synthetic (as Schwepps pointed out in another thread, 'fully synthetic' is a marketing term and not technical term).

 

[Schwepps]

This is the 2nd time I'm hearing/seeing this. One lub reseller told me the cost in producing semi-synthetic (G-III) and fully synthetic (G-IV) is the same, so why pay 2x or 3x more for the G-IV? That fella until now still using semi-synthetic because it's insane for him to pay the extra for something that cost the same to produce.

You misunderstand me, astro. I mean that G-III base stock is homogeneous within G-III base stock, and G-IV base stock within G-IV base stock. G-III and G-IV are not the same: G-III is hydro-cracked oil from crude oil, G-IV is synthesized oil, usually from ethylene gas. G-IV is made by a relatively small no of plants in the world and global supply is usually short. The base stock is at least twice the cost of G-III to a blender, if not more.

 

[Schwepps]

Astroboy, if having Group IV base is important to you, do keep in mind Shell Helix Ultra 5w-40 is also Group III base stock.

http://www.epc.shell.com/Docs/GSAP_msds_00020782.PDF (Under chapter 3)

Our thanks to cempaka for pointing this out. How sad, just when we thought we could get a reliable fully synth on-the-shelf. Now I know why there's an AB moniker to the OEM Helix Ultra from dealers.

Also sad to learn that Shell has also succumbed to marketing a G-III mineral as a fully-synth. While the MDS cempaka refered to is from UK (which I know follows the US lead), I checked the Shell Malaysia MDS and it says the same thing. I thought we could trust Shell as the ultimate O&G company.

 

[Schwepps]

(as Schwepps pointed out in another thread, 'fully synthetic' is a marketing term and not technical term)

Please don't attribute that ridiculous statement to me, viewfinder! That was the statement of the stupid arbitration judge in the US, who in one sentence spoiled the whole market for all motor oil consumers the world over. Because of that statement, we're all at risk of buying what we think is fully-synth and finding out that it's mineral, even from Shell it would seem.

 

[astroboy]

This is indeed another sad day.. 2 sad news in a roll:

1. Shell Helix Ultra LL-01 is just a G-III oil.. (which part of chapter3, I can't see?)

2. Michelin has just discontinued PP2 for my mini MPV which runs on 195/60R15..

Looks like I either go Powerflow 0w-30 or Torco SR-1 LL-04 5w-30 again, for my next oil change.

 

[Schwepps]

Astro, I did some checking and found out there are only 4 major PAO producers in the world, and Shell isn't one of them. They are BP Chemical, Chevron-Phillips Chemical, Neste, and Exxon-Mobil. And it's Helix Ultra AB that's on the BMW list of approved oils, not Ultra. So it would seem that Shell has also joined the marketing hype bandwagon and slapped a LL01 on a mineral oil. Makes me wonder about their Vee-Power claims now...

You change your oil at every 10k, so there's no harm in using your favourite Yankee oil bro. :wink:

 

[astroboy]

yey! but I want to try Castrol Powerflow 0w-30 wor.. which does not bear LL at all compare to the Yankee LL-04.. which one u think better ??? performance? Protection?

 

[cempaka]

To be fair, it's not just Shell that's playing the G-III synthetic marketing game, most of the well known oil companies are these days. It's simply too lucrative I suppose. At least Shell has straightforward MSDS for all its products available online which is great, since some other companies aren't so forthcoming.

Helix Ultra is still an excellent oil but I'd definitely make sure I bought it at around 129 at a hypermarket, not 200+ for it at a service station or workshop.

As far as your next change Astroboy, it'd be interesting to hear how the Powerflow compares to the Torco. I think Liqui Moly also has a 0w-30 or 5w-30 that meets your requirements. Decisions, decisions :wink:

 

[Schwepps]

yey! but I want to try Castrol Powerflow 0w-30 wor.. which does not bear LL at all compare to the Yankee LL-04.. which one u think better ??? performance? Protection?

Don't think it matters if you're changing every 10k. Afterall, synthetics and LL-type specs were introduced to extend the oil change interval to 25k or 1 yr. Torco may have more friction enhancers making it more slippery, but remember that they are exempt from API testing because they're a 'racing oil' producer. So all their ratings are claimed, not tested.

 

[Schwepps]

To be fair, it's not just Shell that's playing the G-III synthetic marketing game, most of the well known oil companies are these days. It's simply too lucrative I suppose. At least Shell has straightforward MSDS for all its products available online which is great, since some other companies aren't so forthcoming.

That it's legal in the US and everyone is doing it is no excuse. That it's more lucrative to sell a mineral at synthetic prices is even worse! It's just plain deceptive marketing to call a mineral oil a fully synthetic.

I've tried a full tank of Premium, and if I'm honest with myself, I can't detect any performance difference and my FC was much the same. V-Power is supposed to be different because of a different hydrocarbon mix and more detergents. But now I'm inclined to say "Oh really?" Using Premium from now on. It's the same RON rating afterall.

 

[astroboy]

"Oh really?"

I have always remain skeptical on Vee-P because I used a tank before on my relatively new 1.3 MPV back then, seriously don't feel any difference... perhaps its our insensitive butt.

One racing kaki of mine bought an old E46 and filled with VP and after that, he just asked me to try because he said he can feel the difference. Maybe because of his old engine and get refreshen by the detergent?! or perhaps he went to the right kiosk with purer Vee-P than the others?!

Technically, for those who "upgrade" from Premium to VP should not felt immediate benefit because it takes time for the cleansing to work while those who downgrade from VP to P should immediate feel the inferiority of the P in terms of combustion efficiency.