A6 Hybrid vs 520d

[sharp]

hopefully this audi doesnt breakdown like my bmw
dream is always better than reality

 

[tIANcI]

Well, if you read Paul Tan's review of the Mitsubishi I-Miev, the japs have guided that at the end of a 10 year lifespan, the battery will still retain 70% efficiency

You can also google stories of Prius battery durability too, so its no myth.

With Audi A6h employing Li-Ion and active cooling capabilities, Audi has claimed better endurance and performance of their hybrid interpretation

BMW claims their cars are amazing and superior in all aspect. They masuk workshop too often. I seen enough BMW BS ads with their claims. Are the cars living up to their claims? Nope ...

 

[JBJB]

There is no such thing as batteries that lasts 10 years. Even at a 0.5c discharge rate it will not last 15 years. I dealt with lipo batteries. Does not exist.

Are you referring to how long the battery will last due to self-discharge?

I think people here are asking about the serviceable life of the battery, i.e. how long before the battery needs to be replaced.

 

[boonster]

hmmmm... Sifu's.... i wonder whether the batteries degrade at the same pace or it is just a few that goes bad.... if the later then selective replacement is possible?

 

[kuntakinte]

hmmmm... Sifu's.... i wonder whether the batteries degrade at the same pace or it is just a few that goes bad.... if the later then selective replacement is possible?

As any hybrid vehicle owner, the biggest concern is always the battery life due to its prohibitive replacement costs.

It was something I seriously considered too before taking the plunge. The longest hybrid vehicle in service is the Prius and thus, some research of it should give some idea on the battery pack durability.

- Prius in service for nearly (or is it more than) 10 years. It uses the less expensive NiMH (according to wiki, Li-Ion, the one used on the A6h, the costs is comparatively 40% more expensive to produce but packs more than the equivalent density and durability)
- altho' the Prius is used extensively as a taxi, there were nary any reports of the battery pack needing replacement under warranty due to failure or otherwise, wear due to age.
- the scant complaints on the battery pack relates to only one factor and it is not related to the battery plates themselves but the connectors on the plates which may corrode. This usually relates to one or two plates in the battery pack. In the states, manufacturer will obviously recommend replacing the entire pack but from the forums, there are experts who can service the connectors and the battery pack will work like before. I don't think we have such experts here or maybe bro tianci is one?
- to me, the bigger concern with the A6h battery pack durability is not our climate heat per se (summer in the states is even hotter than our hottest temperature here) but humidity factor which can speed up corrosion in the connectors if the Prius case is any indication. So, lets hope they are properly insulated

 

[tIANcI]

Are you referring to how long the battery will last due to self-discharge?

I think people here are asking about the serviceable life of the battery, i.e. how long before the battery needs to be replaced.

I am talking about when its being used. Number of cycles determines life span of a battery. Not just age or KMs. How many charge and discharge cycles at what rate (C) can the battery last? C is the term used for charge and discharge rates. 1C is the rate of the battery capacity. Hence for a 2A pack 1C is charge/discharge rate of 2A.

 

[tIANcI]

As any hybrid vehicle owner, the biggest concern is always the battery life due to its prohibitive replacement costs.

It was something I seriously considered too before taking the plunge. The longest hybrid vehicle in service is the Prius and thus, some research of it should give some idea on the battery pack durability.

- Prius in service for nearly (or is it more than) 10 years. It uses the less expensive NiMH (according to wiki, Li-Ion, the one used on the A6h, the costs is comparatively 40% more expensive to produce but packs more than the equivalent density and durability)
- altho' the Prius is used extensively as a taxi, there were nary any reports of the battery pack needing replacement under warranty due to failure or otherwise, wear due to age.
- the scant complaints on the battery pack relates to only one factor and it is not related to the battery plates themselves but the connectors on the plates which may corrode. This usually relates to one or two plates in the battery pack. In the states, manufacturer will obviously recommend replacing the entire pack but from the forums, there are experts who can service the connectors and the battery pack will work like before. I don't think we have such experts here or maybe bro tianci is one?
- to me, the bigger concern with the A6h battery pack durability is not our climate heat per se (summer in the states is even hotter than our hottest temperature here) but humidity factor which can speed up corrosion in the connectors if the Prius case is any indication. So, lets hope they are properly insulated

NiMh batts are more durable than Lithium batts in the sense of abuse. The NiMh packs can handle heat well. They have less energy density, lower discharge rates but they can tahan abuse. At the start of lithium batteries back in 2003 they need TLC. New packs may be much better today but they always need TLC if not the packs will kembang. Esp those packed in brick form. So it depends on which manufacturer the car guys get it from and how much they pay for it.

So inasmuch as the old Prius is a great guide on battery lifespan, there are also some other considerations because lithium batts are not the same as NiMh ones.

 

[safri]

good discussions on the hybrid battery life span and durability...i think the 900 odd people that have placed their bookings for the A6H will be smiling after reading this thread.

 

[kuntakinte]

NiMh batts are more durable than Lithium batts in the sense of abuse. The NiMh packs can handle heat well. They have less energy density, lower discharge rates but they can tahan abuse. At the start of lithium batteries back in 2003 they need TLC. New packs may be much better today but they always need TLC if not the packs will kembang. Esp those packed in brick form. So it depends on which manufacturer the car guys get it from and how much they pay for it.

So inasmuch as the old Prius is a great guide on battery lifespan, there are also some other considerations because lithium batts are not the same as NiMh ones.

Can't say I fully agree with your argument. If your definition of tahan abuse is expressed in terms of durability in the heat, yes, you may be right. On this part, I guess Audi is fully aware too thus the implementation of active cooling on the battery pack.

To me, as a lay man, tahan abuse equates to the hundreds of thousands of regenerative charges and discharges that happen during coasting and braking before the battery is fully empty, and yet still able to hold its efficiency with minimal 'memory effect', thus maintaining energy density and durability of usage for years to come. Since Li-on wins hands down in this department and if such is the case, it makes simple sense that it should last longer than NiMH, no?

 

[tIANcI]

Can't say I fully agree with your argument. If your definition of tahan abuse is expressed in terms of durability in the heat, yes, you may be right. On this part, I guess Audi is fully aware too thus the implementation of active cooling on the battery pack.

To me, as a lay man, tahan abuse equates to the hundreds of thousands of regenerative charges and discharges that happen during coasting and braking before the battery is fully empty, and yet still able to hold its efficiency with minimal 'memory effect', thus maintaining energy density and durability of usage for years to come. Since Li-on wins hands down in this department and if such is the case, it makes simple sense that it should last longer than NiMH, no?

From my personal experience before, not necessary. Does not mean Lithium will fail faster than NiMh but it may not live up to 15 years. But prices will drop like flies in 10 years time. As it is China already producing lipos at 25% of Korean branded ones.

I drive a hybrid and dun really care about my battery lifespan. I assume Honda will not fail me like BMW.

 

[kuntakinte]

Someone who's got the car posted on Paul tan blog that from the AP, the tax free price of the car is 180k, add 10% sales tax and you have 198k, which means euromobil is making 90k per car and for 1000 cars, that's a cool $90mil gross profit for this year. That's an obscene amount of profit by any standards 50% gross margins!!!!

After years of being screwed by your government into paying excessive protectionist tax for our cars, just when you thought you can finally enjoy a 'tax free' car, you get screwed by his crony instead. Such is life! Sigh!!

 

[328Sport]

Did you take in the cost everyone has to pay those AP king ? Say around RM40-50k per AP. So Euromobil profit might not be as high ?

And importer tends to underdeclare import value ?

 

[kuntakinte]

Did you take in the cost everyone has to pay those AP king ? Say around RM40-50k per AP. So Euromobil profit might not be as high ?

And importer tends to underdeclare import value ?

Firstly, there is no need to under declare since hybrids below 2000cc are tax free anyway.

Secondly, if I remembered correctly, there was a recent policy change that allowed official distributors to apply for direct AP in the numbers that they can sell

Therefore, it's clean profit by euromobil.

 

[328Sport]

From business point of view, the importer might still underdeclare to pave the way for future when duty waiver removed.

Distributor AP still cost some money, RM10k at least if not mistaken.

 

[E46Fanatic]

Someone who's got the car posted on Paul tan blog that from the AP, the tax free price of the car is 180k, add 10% sales tax and you have 198k, which means euromobil is making 90k per car and for 1000 cars, that's a cool $90mil gross profit for this year. That's an obscene amount of profit by any standards 50% gross margins!!!!

After years of being screwed by your government into paying excessive protectionist tax for our cars, just when you thought you can finally enjoy a 'tax free' car, you get screwed by his crony instead. Such is life! Sigh!!

Unlikely true. A brand new base car with zero options is already UK43k pounds ~RM202k in UK and 53k Euros ~RM218k in Germany.

Add all the generous list of options which comes with the Malaysian Spec'ed A6 hybrid and sales tax and it's close enough to the selling price of the car here.

 

[casioguy]

It's hard to go for a 520i or 528i when the A6H comes in at this price level. Especially when the Audi is no slouch. Luckily, Euromobil had only about 1000 cars to sell or else they may wipe the floor with BMW and Mercedes

 

[sheng]

It's hard to go for a 520i or 528i when the A6H comes in at this price level. Especially when the Audi is no slouch. Luckily, Euromobil had only about 1000 cars to sell or else they may wipe the floor with BMW and Mercedes

I'm assuming the majority of Malaysian A6h buyers have made their purchase decision purely based on the RM280k selling price.
Just a simple question - assuming that the price for a brand new 528i is the same or cheaper than the A6h now, which would you guys consider buying:questionmark:

 

[E46Fanatic]

Most buyers will just buy the best car or deal their money can bring them.

 

[casioguy]

I'm assuming the majority of Malaysian A6h buyers have made their purchase decision purely based on the RM280k selling price.
Just a simple question - assuming that the price for a brand new 528i is the same or cheaper than the A6h now, which would you guys consider buying:questionmark:

I would go for the Audi A6h if only to have something different from the rather long-in-the-tooth 528i. But then again, the BMW has a far better network of service centres but have you heard the engine clatter of the new 4-pot mills of the 520i and 528i? I was very surprised that the clattering racket could match a diesel engine! Such a huge difference from the silent creamy smooth 6-pot mills of old. I think BMW has its work cut out for it to improve the idling noise. Listen to the A6H and it's a huge difference.

 

[Bruce_Z]

I'm assuming the majority of Malaysian A6h buyers have made their purchase decision purely based on the RM280k selling price.
Just a simple question - assuming that the price for a brand new 528i is the same or cheaper than the A6h now, which would you guys consider buying:questionmark:

This thread gets more and more "twisted" by the day...heh heh heh. But academically speaking, i definitely will go for a 528i given the same price..off course! Its a no brainer. i think you could sway at least 50% of the buyers of the a6h back to the f10...maybe even more. just look at those guys who hesitated going for the a6h just because of the boot size....Anyhow,the F10 528i would trash the a6h upside down, inside out..in performance, looks and long term desirability wise.