Website programming - is this true?

[bmwcar]

The thread is diverting from the 2 questions:-

1) should website hoster be keeping back up in case something goes wrong during the transfer? From what has been posted so far, the general consensus seems to be that for customer service - yes, some do in case something goes wrong with the back up.

2) once a site is recovered and back on track - as in my example when the Member Hoster manages to recover and rehost the site, can the recovered data which is being hosted (the website was running) be transfered to another party?

I think the consensus here was that if there was no back up and the data was recovered and managed to be hosted again, then with minimal effort, it should be able to be burnt into a cd and passed to the client or allowed access to redownload again.

Have learnt that
- good business ethics - give client a cd and make a back up in case the client scr3ws it op.

- Buyer beware ethics - give the client access. he scr3ws it up. No back up cd. Then the hoster then repairs it within 1 day (must not be too difficult if it takes 1 day) and rehosts it, then tells the client sorry, it only works from the member hosters server now.....cannot be transfered any more and makes no effort to rectify the issue....

I know which company's ethics i would prefer dealing with.

 

[karate70]

hmmm interesting thread where views are shared... technically i leave it to the expert as i m no techie... but m curious about something, tenure or duration of contract in web hosting.

normally it is a year, rite? n when does the tenure starts and ends? once you sign up with web hoster or only when the site goes live????

to the lawyers in the hse. if the site goes live in Sept and shuts down in march, fr a layman term, this is not a yr but what shld the actual tenure b?

another question to PD. if the current web hoster receives a written authorisation letter fr the current admin would the new admin still be able to download watever data fr the web hoster? if i m not mistaken, the web hoster do keep the data for a certain amount of time.

just curious and wan to expand my knowledge so would know wat to do whn i encouter this problem....

 

[Ratatouille]

Thats going on the presumption that the new hosting company had erroneously attempted to transfter (ie handover) after the expiry. But even in those circumstances, most hosting companies will allow for a buffer period of approx 3 days to allow CLients (or new hosting companies) to finish the handover process etc. Also, the buffer is usual practice incase the new hosting company cant host it adequately and the client decides to move back tothe original hosting company.

In bmwcar's question, the presumption is that the platform is the same. WHich means, theoratically, there shouldnt be any major bugs unless the old hosting company had DELIBERATELY undertaken actions (be it actively or by refraining from doing something that it should) that would cause bugs to surface. In this situation, there isnt a "handover" but rather a dectruction of the Clients legitimate property....and thus THEFT. Why THEFT? Because theft is the dishonest appropriation of property belonging to another with the intention of permanently depriving the other of it. There is no use in "shooting" the new hosting company....when the old hosting company was unethical. Right?

Dun scold me la. Am just stating my opinion and my opinion is that no experience hosting company or admin should start transfer of data after expiry of hosting contract. Just sounds silly to me, that's all. I dun mean you should literally shoot a person. Nanti I kena charge with conspiracy to murder.

This question I have to ask. When "handover", was the data or website running? From experience, when my old company handover to clients a a live system, we ensure the system is up and running. We run checks of the system before we pass on the admin key for the system. Handover is done as in to assign the administration to the client's appointment part. . Once the newly appointed party acknowledge receipt of the admin key, we receive full payment and we consider ourselves discharged. What was the buffer between handover of admin key to time of website down?

 

[LumKyE46]

Background:-
....the Independent Hoster was appointed by the 9 members and was to download the website from the Member Hoster's server to his server....however, the Independent Hoster keyed in the wrong password and thus locked the password. This was then resolved the following day after the deadline and downloading began but the Member Hoster's server was then brought down midway through the download - thus the data transfer was incomplete. [/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT]

The member hoster's partner then said that she could recover it and park it in his server temporarily which some of the members agreed to - the recovery took 1 day and the website was back up and has been running fine for the last few months.

However, once another Independent Hoster had been identified to do host the website, and after trying many times by most of the 9 other members to meet up with the Member Hoster to discuss next steps including confirmation of 1 member who they stated had yet to pay , the member hoster partner stated via electronic communication that to forget about the 1 members payment and that the website could not be transfered as during the recovery, the data for this website had to be linked in various areas of his server and thus could not be downloaded without great difficulty.


Read the above bro.

And... after the hiccups, HOW CAN THE DATAS NOW BELONGS TO THAT FRAUDULENT ENTERPRISE (FE)???.... Isn't it THEFT?

 

[Ratatouille]

hmmm interesting thread where views are shared... technically i leave it to the expert as i m no techie... but m curious about something, tenure or duration of contract in web hosting.

normally it is a year, rite? n when does the tenure starts and ends? once you sign up with web hoster or only when the site goes live????

to the lawyers in the hse. if the site goes live in Sept and shuts down in march, fr a layman term, this is not a yr but what shld the actual tenure b?

another question to PD. if the current web hoster receives a written authorisation letter fr the current admin would the new admin still be able to download watever data fr the web hoster? if i m not mistaken, the web hoster do keep the data for a certain amount of time.

just curious and wan to expand my knowledge so would know wat to do whn i encouter this problem....

Tenure of webhosting starts on date you sign up for the hosting package, not site going live. Web companies usually test the website "behind the scene" before making it live.

I reckon if a website goes live in September and it shuts down in March, the hosting package would have expired a week before site went down. Usually the hosting company would send reminders for renewal and upon confirmation on non-renewal, the site would be suspended on date of expiry and probably taken offline several days later.

The easiest way for the site to go online again is to just renew the hosting package. Just go to the web company and pay cash card for renewal. if you have no time, just pay online or send a despatch.

 

[LumKyE46]

In reiteration for a mere discussion here... that Fraudulent Enterprise close that site.
Anyway... that is their trademark in trying to shut ppl up, but banning ppl is their expertise-la like ISA. Or maybe they shutting it down now to attempt amending some policies or outlook of the site.
:thefinger:

 

[popeadrian]

Tenure of webhosting starts on date you sign up for the hosting package, not site going live. Web companies usually test the website "behind the scene" before making it live.

I reckon if a website goes live in September and it shuts down in March, the hosting package would have expired a week before site went down. Usually the hosting company would send reminders for renewal and upon confirmation on non-renewal, the site would be suspended on date of expiry and probably taken offline several days later.

The easiest way for the site to go online again is to just renew the hosting package. Just go to the web company and pay cash card for renewal. if you have no time, just pay online or send a despatch.

Hmm.....but what if the Client had asked FE (once again, using the scenario above) to handle all of this as part of the "work"....since FE as the old "hosting company" had agreed to this, would not the renewal withthe ACTUAL hosting company be part of the service? In this instance, the actual tenure of the webhosting, as far as the client is concerned, is from the date that the instructions were given to FE. Looking at it logically, for all the client knows, FE could merely be "piggybacking" on its existing server space (already purchased for itself or other customers) and thus the expiry would be before the expiration of the arragement with the Client.

Karate's scenerio is applicable to a situation where the Client deals directly with the Hosting Company...and not with a 3rd Party.

 

[NKTOB]

In this case, FE services was "TERMINATED" even before the yearly contract was up, coz a new service provider was already appointed!

What can/shd a "TERMINATED" service provider like FE to render some more?

In short..

Fraudulent Ent started out on a voluntarily basis, more for the passion & friendship then anything else.

However in a short span, the objectives have deviated from it's core. A newer approach was suggested :

1) Setting up a Public Limited Company (Sdn Bhd) to manage the site
2) Request transfer of domain ownership & data to their new set up

With that Fraudulent Ent willingly steps down and wouldn't play further part in their quest.

A timeline was given to all, much earlier. The expiry and lead time was more than enuff to do a clean transfer...

Unfortunately that was not the case, and hence we are all here to have a good read and laugh...:top:

In a business point, once a service contract has been terminated even before the end of it, the contractor will not be liable or subject to con't to fulfill it's contractial obligation. As the client would've known, they would already have their new contractor to do the follow-up...

Is the last phrase correct here?

 

[bmwcar]

Tenure of webhosting starts on date you sign up for the hosting package, not site going live. Web companies usually test the website "behind the scene" before making it live.

I reckon if a website goes live in September and it shuts down in March, the hosting package would have expired a week before site went down. Usually the hosting company would send reminders for renewal and upon confirmation on non-renewal, the site would be suspended on date of expiry and probably taken offline several days later.

The easiest way for the site to go online again is to just renew the hosting package. Just go to the web company and pay cash card for renewal. if you have no time, just pay online or send a despatch.

Hi Newbie - Ratatouille,

Welcome.. Nice to see you joining and within the day getting involved in the discussions....

Must meet up with you at the next tt as i your wordings remind me of someone from another forum whose name disappears from my head at this moment....it will probably re-appear later.....

Anyway, you seem quite knowledgeable on the website issues. What would be your take on 1 of the earlier questions:-

1) a transfer is unsuccessful, the initial member's server is down, then once the site is recovered, rehosted under the member host's server - as in my earlier example when the Member Hoster manages to recover and rehost the site, can the recovered data which is being hosted (the website was running) be transfered to another party? What would prevent a delay on the transfer back?

My PS3 example - would recommend a read of the 4 scenarios - its the bare minimum scenarios - if more is needed, will gladly oblige.....

 

[Ratatouille]

Hmm.....but what if the Client had asked FE (once again, using the scenario above) to handle all of this as part of the "work"....since FE as the old "hosting company" had agreed to this, would not the renewal withthe ACTUAL hosting company be part of the service? In this instance, the actual tenure of the webhosting, as far as the client is concerned, is from the date that the instructions were given to FE. Looking at it logically, for all the client knows, FE could merely be "piggybacking" on its existing server space (already purchased for itself or other customers) and thus the expiry would be before the expiration of the arragement with the Client.

Karate's scenerio is applicable to a situation where the Client deals directly with the Hosting Company...and not with a 3rd Party.

Too many scenarios here. Check out the topic of "Scenario Planning". Google it to answer all your "ifs" question.

At the end of the day, I am just telling Karate the easiest way to get the site up. He ask, I tell. Just renew the hosting package. Let say this website went down yesterday due to one (1) single reason - expiry of hosting, any forum member can just go renew the hosting. Just do an domain check to see where the domain is parked and make payment to the hosting company. You don't need the admin, moderator, committee whoever person who develop or run the website to make payment. Anyone can make payment and get the site up. Fastest way.

 

[popeadrian]

In this case, FE services was "TERMINATED" even before the yearly contract was up, coz a new service provider was already appointed!

What can/shd a "TERMINATED" service provider like FE to render some more?

In short..

Fraudulent Ent started out on a voluntarily basis, more for the passion & friendship then anything else.

However in a short span, the objectives have deviated from it's core. A newer approach was suggested :

1) Setting up a Public Limited Company (Sdn Bhd) to manage the site
2) Request transfer of domain ownership & data to their new set up

With that Fraudulent Ent willingly steps down and wouldn't play further part in their quest.

A timeline was given to all, much earlier. The expiry and lead time was more than enuff to do a clean transfer...

Unfortunately that was not the case, and hence we are all here to have a good read and laugh...:top:

In a business point, once a service contract has been terminated even before the end of it, the contractor will not be liable or subject to con't to fulfill it's contractial obligation. As the client would've known, they would already have their new contractor to do the follow-up...

Is the last phrase correct here?

It seems that the point was (again) missed with regards to the scenario. You see...as the scenario goes, whilst it is true that FE was terminated by the Client, they (ie FE) were subsequently rehired (and with the open arms of FE) albeit only as a stop-gap (until Co.HT is able to get up to speed) to finish the job for which they were instructed. In this circumstance, the old arrangment still stands and the time still runs. So to answer your question, FE has not fulfilled its obligations, period.

But drawing from your own words.... it would seem that if FE "willingly steps down and wouldn't play further part in their quest" as you put it, wouldnt that mean that FE should, quite simply, hand over ALL the data in its possession including any and all amendments that have been made since the agreement was for ONE YEAR....with that in mind, the fact that FE refuses to do so amounts to THEFT.

Plain and simple.

 

[tkew]

In this case, FE services was "TERMINATED" even before the yearly contract was up, coz a new service provider was already appointed!

What can/shd a "TERMINATED" service provider like FE to render some more?

In short..

Fraudulent Ent started out on a voluntarily basis, more for the passion & friendship then anything else.

However in a short span, the objectives have deviated from it's core. A newer approach was suggested :

1) Setting up a Public Limited Company (Sdn Bhd) to manage the site
2) Request transfer of domain ownership & data to their new set up

With that Fraudulent Ent willingly steps down and wouldn't play further part in their quest.

A timeline was given to all, much earlier. The expiry and lead time was more than enuff to do a clean transfer...

Unfortunately that was not the case, and hence we are all here to have a good read and laugh...:top:

In a business point, once a service contract has been terminated even before the end of it, the contractor will not be liable or subject to con't to fulfill it's contractial obligation. As the client would've known, they would already have their new contractor to do the follow-up...

Is the last phrase correct here?

If you know how to do business, you wont take what others have paid for and use it as you have make it yourself and still dare to talk c#$k & reply. Just like claiming you owned the car that the company is paying for.

If the website is a totally NEW from the new admin and with 0 MEMBER from the start. Nobody be bother to F you. :thefinger:

 

[popeadrian]

Too many scenarios here. Check out the topic of "Scenario Planning". Google it to answer all your "ifs" question.

At the end of the day, I am just telling Karate the easiest way to get the site up. He ask, I tell. Just renew the hosting package. Let say this website went down yesterday due to one (1) single reason - expiry of hosting, any forum member can just go renew the hosting. Just do an domain check to see where the domain is parked and make payment to the hosting company. You don't need the admin, moderator, committee whoever person who develop or run the website to make payment. Anyone can make payment and get the site up. Fastest way.

Admittedly that it true.... but if a service is instructed to FE (encompassing renewals etc) then under what deviant mentality can FE claim innocence if the hosting tenure expires? Odd...but in a business setting, it makes absolutely no sense to the Client why they should have to do this when they;ve already instructed FE to do so.

 

[NKTOB]

Further the above...

How can I call a "theft" when there's no ownership? As long as FE's books is concerned, there are unbalanced figures...coz some didn't even owned up!

After the initial screwed up by the so-called new 3rd party hoster/admin...the site mentioned here was literally down for a good 1 week time!

Even if FE would want to recover any of it...it would've taken more than just 1 day to get it back up.

Even that it was from the instruction from the "domain owner" who is the rightful owner here...to get the site up again, (some back-up + reconstruction) at FE's own expense...

Anyway, all these would've been avoidable. A simple gesture like...

Hey, my 3rd party F@#K Up liao...Can you assist?

But instead, as usual "jumpin the gun" was the norm back then till now..FE was accused of hindering in the process..name callings included hahaha...

All these "nickle dime" project was not worth the all the fuss...

Back to present day...

Quick scenario..

Your old house was a dot com...where you live with all your furnitures..

Now you go to a dot com dot my which is not your house and you wan to move other ppl furnitures?

Bear in mind...who is the rightful owner here?

 

[Q8Q8]

Alor...no need to give one ar..Sudah "chao yau yee" some more must serve in a silver platter meh :stupid:

Anyway...those felo have more than a "week" time to do lar....Some more acknowledged receipt of the user ID & Password...

Told those felo many times on the expiry of the last server...better cepat buat, but terlambat...what to do, now shoot at old webmaster lor, best those felo do now...

Anyway, look on the bright side...now bmwcm many ppl log-in liao :top:

Alor...........if you shut it down, how do you discharge yourself ? Is it so troublesome to shut after they download ? waiting to go tou toi meh !!

 

[Ratatouille]

Hi Newbie - Ratatouille,

Welcome.. Nice to see you joining and within the day getting involved in the discussions....

Must meet up with you at the next tt as i your wordings remind me of someone from another forum whose name disappears from my head at this moment....it will probably re-appear later.....

Anyway, you seem quite knowledgeable on the website issues. What would be your take on 1 of the earlier questions:-

1) a transfer is unsuccessful, the initial member's server is down, then once the site is recovered, rehosted under the member host's server - as in my earlier example when the Member Hoster manages to recover and rehost the site, can the recovered data which is being hosted (the website was running) be transfered to another party? What would prevent a delay on the transfer back?

My PS3 example - would recommend a read of the 4 scenarios - its the bare minimum scenarios - if more is needed, will gladly oblige.....

:love: Do you have a Honda ?

My lasting posting for today as I need to go Matta Fair to gather information on Thailand. XXX promise to buy me a BMW emblem in exchange for info!

We usually have program back-ups in our main server, not data back-up. If a client's server goes down, it all depends whether we are the caretaker of the server. The system admin and technical director is responsible for all back-ups to ensure system is running 24/7. My ex-company offers SLA for 24 hour on-call service. If a system goes down because of our system, we'll fix it. Could take a couple of hours or sometimes days depends on extend of problem. If the downtime is due to a TMnet or Jaring line down, the SLA is with the hosting company, nothing to do with my company who is the system provider.

Yes, programs can be rehosted but takes time to reconstruct. The platform for our system is almost the same for all clients and it requires some modification of codes to turn them into a working model.

My scenario (seem to be the IN word here) is different because we provide systems to banks and securities and we don't handle their data. We only do the programs and link to their existing data, rather our system is a bridging system. Yes, we sometime grab some random data for testing purpose to test the running of our programmes. Normal cases, clients do not allow us to touch their data. We do not have transfer backs issues as once we pass on the responsibility of the system to the client's system admin, it becomes their baby.

Your PS3 issue - read previous posting. All depends on my clients's behavious towards my outlet and staff.

Hope this helps. I am going to be like Pyhton signing off this topic. I can offer my opinion and my opinion only.

 

[popeadrian]

Further the above...

How can I call a "theft" when there's no ownership? As long as FE's books is concerned, there are unbalanced figures...coz some didn't even owned up!

After the initial screwed up by the so-called new 3rd party hoster/admin...the site mentioned here was literally down for a good 1 week time!

Even if FE would want to recover any of it...it would've taken more than just 1 day to get it back up.

Even that it was from the instruction from the "domain owner" who is the rightful owner here...to get the site up again, (some back-up + reconstruction) at FE's own expense...

Anyway, all these would've been avoidable. A simple gesture like...

Hey, my 3rd party F@#K Up liao...Can you assist?

But instead, as usual "jumpin the gun" was the norm back then till now..FE was accused of hindering in the process..name callings included hahaha...

All these "nickle dime" project was not worth the all the fuss...

Back to present day...

Quick scenario..

Your old house was a dot com...where you live with all your furnitures..

Now you go to a dot com dot my which is not your house and you wan to move other ppl furnitures?

Bear in mind...who is the rightful owner here?

Think you missed the point (AGAIN) in your analogy....

Firstly, as bmwcar's scenario rightly points out, FE stated that there were no outstanding monies due.
Secondly, i think its mentioned somewhere but may have been edited....the scenario was such that the Member Hoster had via text messages said that his business partner in FE refuses to aid in the clean handover unless the Co.HT kow-towed to the business partner.
Thirdly, using your analogy of moving from a dot com to a dot com dot my with the analogy of houses & furniture. Its quite simple.... since the house (ie dot com) is owned by one person, the furniture OBVIOUSLY belongs to another person, then this is a RENTAL. So, if the person wants to move house after a couple of months, obviously the furniture will go with the them, isnt it? You cant rent an empty house and then leave the furniture just because the person who made you the furniture is claiming that they still own the furnitre, isnt it? Then that furniture maker is either a liar or trying to be a thief. Or worse still, if the landlord of your new house is claiming that they put in some new furniture for you (and already charge you for it) but if you leave their property you must leave all your existing furniture for them!

Either way, the furniture maker or the landlord of the new house (using your analogy) is unethical.

 

[RedEarth]

Further the above...

Even that it was from the instruction from the "domain owner" who is the rightful owner here...to get the site up again, (some back-up + reconstruction) at FE's own expense...

Interesting answer...... :burnout:

Get the site up again (some back-up + reconstruction) at FE's own expense BUT used the same and the old data + old members data is not the right thing to do right???....Well if its a totally new set-up with 0 members to start with like bro Tkew said, then its a different story like so called "Mr Domain owner" instruction.

In that case the so called "Mr Domain Owner" gave you a wrong instruction OR FE made it up its self.....and i m impressed of FE initiative/ voluntary to bring the site up again if there isnot any intention for $$$ making out of the site.... its a potential site tho.....:thefinger: :thefinger: :thefinger:

regards,
:rock:

 

[NKTOB]

Think you missed the point (AGAIN) in your analogy....

Firstly, as bmwcar's scenario rightly points out, FE stated that there were no outstanding monies due.
Secondly, i think its mentioned somewhere but may have been edited....the scenario was such that the Member Hoster had via text messages said that his business partner in FE refuses to aid in the clean handover unless the Co.HT kow-towed to the business partner.
Thirdly, using your analogy of moving from a dot com to a dot com dot my with the analogy of houses & furniture. Its quite simple.... since the house (ie dot com) is owned by one person, the furniture OBVIOUSLY belongs to another person, then this is a RENTAL. So, if the person wants to move house after a couple of months, obviously the furniture will go with the them, isnt it? You cant rent an empty house and then leave the furniture just because the person who made you the furniture is claiming that they still own the furnitre, isnt it? Then that furniture maker is either a liar or trying to be a thief.

Either way, the furniture maker (using your analogy) is unethical.

Have you paid?

My analogy is referring to furniture lar....mana ada mentioned furniture maker?

 

[NKTOB]

Further the above...

Even that it was from the instruction from the "domain owner" who is the rightful owner here...to get the site up again, (some back-up + reconstruction) at FE's own expense...


Interesting answer...... :burnout:

Get the site up again (some back-up + reconstruction) at FE's own expense BUT used the same and the old data + old members data is not the right thing to do right???....Well if its a totally new set-up with 0 members to start with like bro Tkew said, then its a different story like so called "Mr Domain owner" instruction.

In that case the so called "Mr Domain Owner" gave you a wrong instruction OR FE made it up its self.....and i m impressed of FE initiative/ voluntary to bring the site up again if there isnot any intention for $$$ making out of the site.... its a potential site tho.....:thefinger: :thefinger: :thefinger:

regards,
:rock:

Halo....mana ada webiste/forum that ada potential to make BIG $$$??? Can you quote me some other sites?

Taking the site up was, yes...voluntarily and it's for all the rest not just for the few

Sudah lupa ke? It supposed to be non-profit..true to the belief of the founderlar.