Website programming - is this true?

[bmwcar]

So the million dollar question.

If a web company has done handover, any file damage or site crash after date of handover, is the web developer still held accountable? Isnt handover equivalent to discharge of duties?

Interesting question think it relates to business ethics and positiveness - please read the full post to see what you think business is - now if you are a businessman and the following occurs what would you do (sorry, another long post) - apologise as i am not software inclinded but i will use a trading example to explain business ethics and try to make parallels.

1) Its Monday. You run a shop selling PS3.
2) Someone walks in and buys a PS3 but says that he will come back on Wed to pick it up. Deal is done. You inform him that it has to be picked up on Wednesday as your shop will be renovating on Wednesday for 2 days and if its not picked up, it might get damaged or stolen during renovations.
3) Wednesday - no sign of the customer
4) Renovations start and the contractors damage the PS3. Thankfully its superficial and would probably take about 4 hours to repair.
5) Customer comes back on Friday evening.

Now as a business man - what you have done:-
a) expected that the customer may be late and put the PS3 in a secure room ( in software speak, i would say that this is the back up that PD was talking about) - Business impact - satisfied customer - definately get repeat business.

b) inform the customer that look, because of his delay, it was damaged as you told him so, but not to worry, you have repaired it at no additional cost and he can pick it up. (it would have eaten into your margin but its 1 more satisfied customer - of course the customer would have been more impressed if you had done a). Software wise - this would be the recovery, repair and then burn into the cd. Business impact - relieved customer - Probably get repeat business

c) repair the PS3 and charge the customer the a nominal cost - customer would be thankful but also wondering why you did not do a). Softwarewise - this would be burn into the cd and charge for 4 hours time. Business impact - relieved customer but probably wondering why a) not done - May get repeat business

d) tell the customer that he did not pick it up on time, thus it got damaged and cannot work any more. Offer to repair it at no cost and then after its repaired, tell the customer it was repaired but now can only run from the electrical powerpoint in your shop so it will be used as a demo unit in your shop for customers to test new games. Make no effort to find out why it cannot run on other electrical points. If the customer wants to play the games just come round to your shop.
What do you think the customer feels.

I think d) relates best to the naration in my first post of this thread - whatever happened to customer first (though he may not be the most informed) in business?

What do you think?

 

[Ratatouille]

Wah... so many scenarios.

I run my own business. I usually do not allow clients to leave things which they have purchased in my outlet. Buy oledi, take it away la. :burnout: Ya, there are times when my customer goes shopping and say will leave their stuff there for few hours and I get my staff to help "jaga" for them. If anything goes missing or wrong with the things, if it's my VIP customer, I guess I have to replace lor. If they come scolding and accusing my staff for not taking care of their things properly hence missing things, I will probably just stand my ground and say their things were left there at their own expense and my staff cannot be held responsible.

Sometime I say heck with nasty rude clients. It goes both ways. If clients are nice, I treat them really nice with special privileges. If they are nasty and rude, then I draw a line in service rendered as it's not a client worth having. I rather have a less stress in my business. :wink: nanti cepat tua.

 

[python_dev]

Just one other technical side to this also.
it can depend somewhat on the Service Level Agreement, I know this probably didn't have much to do with it in this case as most were not thinking about it when it all started but an example of it is here from my hosting company.

Account Cancellation: All requests for canceling accounts must be made by email with at least 30 days notice but not more than 60 days prior written notice and sent to AxiHost Cancelations. You must have all account information to cancel.



Subscriber acknowledges that the service provided is of such a nature that service can be interrupted for many reasons other than the negligence of the company and that damages resulting from any interruption of service are difficult to ascertain. Therefore, subscriber agrees that the company shall not be liable for any damages arising from such causes beyond the direct and exclusive control of the company. Subscriber further acknowledges that the company's liability for its own negligence may not in any event exceed an amount equivalent to charges payable by subscriber for services during the period damages occurred. In no event shall the company be liable for any special or consequential damages, loss or injury.



New Domain Accounts: All new webhosting accounts involving new domains will be set up and entered into our DNS servers within 3 to 5 business days. Due to unforeseen complications, however, this process may sometimes require up to 7 business days. If the new domain is registered by the account holder, there will be no handling fee. If the domain is registered by AxiHost, Inc. on behalf of the account holder a handling fee will be incurred.



Transfer of Domains: New webhosting accounts which involve the transfer of a domain from another provider to AxiHost, Inc. will require a minimum of seven (7) days to be set up and entered into our DNS servers. In some cases, such transfers may take up to sixty (60) days. Due to the unpredictable nature of the transfer process, no guarantees are made regarding the amount of time a specific transfer may take. If the transfer of the domain is done by AxiHost, Inc. on behalf of the account holder a handling fee will be incurred. If the customer cancels service during the transfer period for any reason, all charges are considered earned.

I highlighted the bit were I think this conversation comes under, while I usually do backup customer data and store it in a web accessable place with link provided, I have no obligation to do so(Just good service).

 

[NKTOB]

Scene #XYZ....

You go to a Wednesday Nite Meeting of "square table" to meet your existing client...

Purpose is to discuss about continuation of a project. After the end of it, you are so "happy" that all agreed with hands down that it shd be remained the same...

You left the meeting thinking all "back to normal"....nice client.

Then came Friday, You received a note saying...the project is "off" your hands now, "we will be heading towards another direction"...WTF!!!!

Then, You knocked your head thinking what happened to the "underneath the table?" talk that went after on :stupid:

So, in terms of Business/Professionalism of supplier & client relationship ethics here...

What do you think "YOU" will feel/do?

 

[python_dev]

Final note on this from me:
While I can offer a proffesional view of all of this.. this thread should not be used as a place to argue over "he said, she said" I have no standing either side of this only a view which I have stated so far.

 

[Ratatouille]

You guys really funi

I used to work in IT line many moons ago. Usually after we officially handover a project, we go party because less burden after that :top: . Handover can be in CD, print or even upload on server with secure password. Once client confirm they can access the data and we know the client has access the data, our hands are clean because after handover, data integrity is no longer our responsibility. What the client does with the data, we shouldnt buat kaypo. Right?

 

[NKTOB]

Final note on this from me:
While I can offer a proffesional view of all of this.. this thread should not be used as a place to argue over "he said, she said" I have no standing either side of this only a view which I have stated so far.

Thanx for your input PD...

Well stated in "RED"....:top:

 

[bmwcar]

Final note on this from me:
While I can offer a proffesional view of all of this.. this thread should not be used as a place to argue over "he said, she said" I have no standing either side of this only a view which I have stated so far.

Noted with Thanks PD. U gave a very good insight to something that greek to me.

 

[bmwcar]

Scene #XYZ....

You go to a Wednesday Nite Meeting of "square table" to meet your existing client...

Purpose is to discuss about continuation of a project. After the end of it, you are so "happy" that all agreed with hands down that it shd be remained the same...

You left the meeting thinking all "back to normal"....nice client.

Then came Friday, You received a note saying...the project is "off" your hands now, "we will be heading towards another direction"...WTF!!!!

Then, You knocked your head thinking what happened to the "underneath the table?" talk that went after on :stupid:

So, in terms of Business/Professionalism of supplier & client relationship ethics here...

What do you think "YOU" will feel/do?

What would i do?

Well, basically i would be upset and for my own stress levels, i would tell them that i could not support them any longer on the project due to their numerous ad hoc changes in decisions though they all think its correct , i would hand whatever has been done to them - and i would make that its handed over well (which in reference to my first example - back up in case the clients screwed up) so that these guys are completely out of my hair and do not come back to me with any issues - scenario - a, b in my PS3 example - totally out of my hair and no more stress.

What i would not do - scenerio d) in my PS3 example.

 

[LumKyE46]

Scene #XYZ....

You go to a Wednesday Nite Meeting of "square table" to meet your existing client...

Purpose is to discuss about continuation of a project. After the end of it, you are so "happy" that all agreed with hands down that it shd be remained the same...

You left the meeting thinking all "back to normal"....nice client.

Then came Friday, You received a note saying...the project is "off" your hands now, "we will be heading towards another direction"...WTF!!!!

Then, You knocked your head thinking what happened to the "underneath the table?" talk that went after on :stupid:

So, in terms of Business/Professionalism of supplier & client relationship ethics here...

What do you think "YOU" will feel/do?

I think thier "Underneath the table-decision" was an attempt to stop the Partner Hoster from collecting monies behind the back of the 9 fellas.

And also, if that Partner Hoster is sincere enuf to handover the site from his grips... why limit the 3 days over the weekend for a new Hoster to download the datas... WTF! that Partner Hoster ultimately had an ulterior motive!...

Ultimately he must have seen an opportunity in making $$$ from the site that the 9 fella entrusted him for his so-called temporary care.

 

[Zoggee]

more like Geeks to me..hehhehe..sorry off topic.

off topic oso....:listen:

speak-ah Ingerlish pls.:smokin:

 

[popeadrian]

Hmm.....why is it that some dimwits can never stick to the topic? Could just be me, but what has THIS got to do with the topic??:stupid:

Anyway, look on the bright side...now bmwcm many ppl log-in liao :top:

Anyway, we'll now get back on track, shall we? bmwcar raised a very simple question regarding hosting and the method in which it is done. The techies have answered but since the conversation has "blossomed", lets look at it from a legal standpoint....blackrobe, pls feel free to jump in :wink:

Lets say there's a Client. Now this Client has asked this company...lets say the company is called Fraudulent Enterprise or FE for short. So Client has asked FE to do some work for it...to sort out its website and to host the website for...lets say, one year. So they sit down, the brief is given by Client to FE and FE says "a-ok,we do no prob!". But now, for whatever reason the Client tells FE that they want the hosting to be done by another company...lets say Company Honest Thom or Co.HT for short. So its all agreed....FE says no problems and they sort of part ways but are still around because Co.HT needs to get the data etc from FE. So one day the data transfer is organised and FE hands the passwords & login etc to Co.HT. Does this equate to "handover"? From a legal standpoint, it DOES NOT. WHy? Simple. To handover a project such as this, it means that FE is to ensure that Co.HT has the necessary access (unrestricted, unhindered etc) to the servers/data to transfter the necessary data. It also means that FE must allow for enough time (reasonable time is the exact phrase) for Co.HT to transfer the data. It also means that FE must handover all backups of the data, any CD copies etc...EVERYTHING that was required by the Client (ie the work) to either Co.HT or the Client. Why? Because it FE doesnt, then its THEFT and to some extent PLAIGARISM and COPYRIGHT INFRINGEMENT!!! Go ahead, google it....its true. This means that FE can't willy nilly utilise the backup data etc to run a new website or to use it to design some new work for another client or itself. IT does not own any of the rights for which the work was done for the client. Remember, that the work was for a ONE YEAR period...which means all the amendments, any updates, any changes etc...everything (unless specofically excluded) are the Clients.....Tah dah!

So now the question is this... in the situation presented by bmwcar, do the "excuses" given hold water? Doubtful. Why? Because backups are done routinely, as stated by PD etc. Now, if...lets say IF, the portions highlighted in red by PD are standard for all such scenarios ie "Therefore, subscriber agrees that the company shall not be liable for any damages arising from such causes beyond the direct and exclusive control of the company. Subscriber further acknowledges that the company's liability for its own negligence may not in any event exceed an amount equivalent to charges payable by subscriber for services during the period damages occurred"then whats to be deduced? Simple...that in this scenario, FE should hand over all the stuff that it should ethically, legally and business wise to the Client. And if, thru its own negligence (lets say for eg, delaying in re-authorising Co.HT access if Co.HT had mis-typed the password) caused a problem, then to reimburse the Client accordingly.

Its plain and simple isnt it?

Reading thru PD, and the other techie postings, it seems that if one were to use the scenario above to bmwcar's question, that FE are either irresponsible, unethical or merely foolish. True, that perhaps the Client should have been wiser but as a business transaction, its pretty cut & dry isnt it? :wink:

 

[jarance]

Just out of curiousity, which website is the above.

I remember that I once have help my friend to transfer the hosting from one company to another company. Everything was done smoothly except the registration of the domain name. It MUST be done at least 1 month before the expiry of the domain subscription. So now, have to make 2 payments. One to company A for the domain name and one to company B for the webhosting.

 

[jarance]

I think thier "Underneath the table-decision" was an attempt to stop the Partner Hoster from collecting monies behind the back of the 9 fellas.

And also, if that Partner Hoster is sincere enuf to handover the site from his grips... why limit the 3 days over the weekend for a new Hoster to download the datas... WTF! that Partner Hoster ultimately had an ulterior motive!...

Ultimately he must have seen an opportunity in making $$$ from the site that the 9 fella entrusted him for his so-called temporary care.

If you intend to renew the contract for another year, usually you are ask to make payment 2 months before the expiry of the contract. The web hostings company have very good program to automatically sent you a reminder every week.

FYI, if the domain name is not renew promptly, all data might be lost. Domain name are not under the control of the web hosting company but they have the obligation to renew it as part of the package of webhosting. Hence, it is the full responsibility of the owner of the domain name to renew it before the expiry to avoid problem. However, if the owner do not intend to renew the webhosting with the existing company, (eg.. due to better rate from other webhosting) they should have implement it one month before the expiry date. That way you can actually have a mirror image on 2 different servers for the same website..

The above is based on my personal dealing with webhosting company. Want to change to another company but wait until last minute to do it.

 

[tkew]

Alor...no need to give one ar..Sudah "chao yau yee" some more must serve in a silver platter meh :stupid:

Anyway...those felo have more than a "week" time to do lar....Some more acknowledged receipt of the user ID & Password...

Told those felo many times on the expiry of the last server...better cepat buat, but terlambat...what to do, now shoot at old webmaster lor, best those felo do now...

Anyway, look on the bright side...now bmwcm many ppl log-in liao :top:

dont talk C^&&*, answer the question who shut it down, while downloding ?? :stupid: The web hoster can be the witness. :thefinger:

Good la let other see what have you done ? :top:

 

[bmwcar]

If you intend to renew the contract for another year, usually you are ask to make payment 2 months before the expiry of the contract. The web hostings company have very good program to automatically sent you a reminder every week.

FYI, if the domain name is not renew promptly, all data might be lost. Domain name are not under the control of the web hosting company but they have the obligation to renew it as part of the package of webhosting. Hence, it is the full responsibility of the owner of the domain name to renew it before the expiry to avoid problem. However, if the owner do not intend to renew the webhosting with the existing company, (eg.. due to better rate from other webhosting) they should have implement it one month before the expiry date. That way you can actually have a mirror image on 2 different servers for the same website..

The above is based on my personal dealing with webhosting company. Want to change to another company but wait until last minute to do it.

Thanks Jarance. I think in my earlier example given, there was no issue with the domain name. It was the transfer of the data from Member Hoster to Independent Hoster where the issues occured. But the member Hoster was able to recover the data within 1 day and host it back again in his server control but after that, the Member Hosters partner stated that the data could not be moved to another hoster as it was all over the place with their other data in the server.

 

[LumKyE46]

If you intend to renew the contract for another year, usually you are ask to make payment 2 months before the expiry of the contract. The web hostings company have very good program to automatically sent you a reminder every week.

FYI, if the domain name is not renew promptly, all data might be lost. Domain name are not under the control of the web hosting company but they have the obligation to renew it as part of the package of webhosting. Hence, it is the full responsibility of the owner of the domain name to renew it before the expiry to avoid problem. However, if the owner do not intend to renew the webhosting with the existing company, (eg.. due to better rate from other webhosting) they should have implement it one month before the expiry date. That way you can actually have a mirror image on 2 different servers for the same website..

The above is based on my personal dealing with webhosting company. Want to change to another company but wait until last minute to do it.

But i believe the new Hosting company can't go any further of having the password for downloading purpose if the payment was not made to Fraudulent Enterprise... looking at the scenario that FE was so $$$ hunger.

 

[Ratatouille]

If you intend to renew the contract for another year, usually you are ask to make payment 2 months before the expiry of the contract. The web hostings company have very good program to automatically sent you a reminder every week.

FYI, if the domain name is not renew promptly, all data might be lost. Domain name are not under the control of the web hosting company but they have the obligation to renew it as part of the package of webhosting. Hence, it is the full responsibility of the owner of the domain name to renew it before the expiry to avoid problem. However, if the owner do not intend to renew the webhosting with the existing company, (eg.. due to better rate from other webhosting) they should have implement it one month before the expiry date. That way you can actually have a mirror image on 2 different servers for the same website..

The above is based on my personal dealing with webhosting company. Want to change to another company but wait until last minute to do it.

Curiosity, why download and transfer the data after the date of expiry? As stated by Jarence, it only make sense to transfer a month before expiry so you have ample time to test the credibility of the data in hand. In most cases when you change hosting, there are bound to be bugs as the platform used may differ.

The guy doing the transfer should be shot for not doing a good job.

 

[Ratatouille]

But i believe the new Hosting company can't go any further of having the password for downloading purpose if the payment was not made to Fraudulent Enterprise... looking at the scenario that FE was so $$$ hunger.

Eh, some say downloading was already in progress and you say no password. If no password, how to download ar? I am so confused by the thread.

 

[popeadrian]

Curiosity, why download and transfer the data after the date of expiry? As stated by Jarence, it only make sense to transfer a month before expiry so you have ample time to test the credibility of the data in hand. In most cases when you change hosting, there are bound to be bugs as the platform used may differ.

The guy doing the transfer should be shot for not doing a good job.

Thats going on the presumption that the new hosting company had erroneously attempted to transfter (ie handover) after the expiry. But even in those circumstances, most hosting companies will allow for a buffer period of approx 3 days to allow CLients (or new hosting companies) to finish the handover process etc. Also, the buffer is usual practice incase the new hosting company cant host it adequately and the client decides to move back tothe original hosting company.

In bmwcar's question, the presumption is that the platform is the same. WHich means, theoratically, there shouldnt be any major bugs unless the old hosting company had DELIBERATELY undertaken actions (be it actively or by refraining from doing something that it should) that would cause bugs to surface. In this situation, there isnt a "handover" but rather a dectruction of the Clients legitimate property....and thus THEFT. Why THEFT? Because theft is the dishonest appropriation of property belonging to another with the intention of permanently depriving the other of it. There is no use in "shooting" the new hosting company....when the old hosting company was unethical. Right?

But lets now take the scenario a little further. Lets say that due to the inability of the new hosting company ie Co.HT to transfter the data properly (ie in effect, there's no Handover from the old hoster ie FE) the old hosting company rehosts the website etc pursuant to the original arragement with the Client. This means, that the actual one year hosting service is still in effect. No probs so far, right? But what happens if the hosting company ie FE decides that they want to amend the website/data.... or just for hte fun of it, to take the Clients Website offline. In effect, to stop doing the work for which they have been instructed to do? Now...what does this mean? Hmmm......... Can FE still claim that they have discharged their business duties? Can they claim that they are no longer responsible? Advice please?