AnGeLiCdEmOn108
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getting a lot of comments from the e46's... any comments from e36's... 
h34r: :nyehehe:
h34r: :nyehehe:
Comparisob Between E36 & E46
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E46Fanatic
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Just to set expectations, don't worry too much about performance figures to the split second. After a few years, the car will unlikely deliver those figures anyway, due to wear on engine, tranny etc.Originally posted by AnGeLiCdEmOn108@May 4 2005, 04:54 AM
getting a lot of comments from the e46's... any comments from e36's...
Juan Powerblow
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Hence, Eldrow's car is souped up but he still denies this, hehe!
AnGeLiCdEmOn108
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did anyone experience rusting to their car... e36 or e46? was checking the forums and found out some of the forumers experienced this even with their e36.
which part of your car got rusted?
what was done to rectify the problem?
did any of the e46 owners experience this yet...
which part of your car got rusted?
what was done to rectify the problem?
did any of the e46 owners experience this yet...
AnGeLiCdEmOn108
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ccl68.Originally posted by ccl68@May 5 2005, 10:20 AM
RUST?? Did I hear correctly???
I would be really interested to hear also....
this is what i found in another thread.
http://bmwclubmalaysia.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=2797
:dunno:
E46Fanatic
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I remember reading that the E36 chassis floor pan welds can shear off in high powered mod applications. The E46 is also somewhat affected but by a lesser degree..
------
The E46 rear driveline and suspension are very similar to that of the E36. An unfortunate side effect of this is that the E46 also shares some of the same problems as the E36. One of these problems is the rear mounting points for the subframe, which can rip out from their spots in the sheet metal (see figure 1). This happens because the rear differential transmits the torsional load from the enginethrough the subframe, then into the chassis. This constant loading and unloading weakens the sheet metal and causes it to fatigue and separate from the chassis. BMW tried to fix this problem in the E46 by placing a cross member on the front two mounting points ofthe subframe. This cross member keeps the front mounting points from having problems by placing the bushing and the stud indouble-sheer, thus reducing the twisting action on the sheet metal. The unfortunate side effect of this is that the load from the front ofthe subframe now gets transmitted to the left rear of the subframe. This is where we have seen many failures of the chassis on lowmileage street cars and race cars. This product reinforces the chassis sheet metal at the subframe mounting points. We do this by thickening the metal and distributing the load over a larger area. This kit will save time when repairing the chassis, and is also strongly recommended as a preventative maintenance item. Notes: The rear suspension, rear subframe, and exhaust must be removed to perform this job.Warning: Requires Welding. Only a professional welder should perform this work. The ECU, alternator, and battery should all bedisconnected before welding to prevent electrical damage. The welding machine should be directly grounded to the chassis, not to any suspension parts. It is also strongly recommended that the trunk interior, and fuel tank are removed and all fuel lines are capped toreduce the fire hazard while welding. Parts list for kit: (See Figure 2) 1. Two 12mm x 1.5 bolts2. Two front subframe mounting point Reinforcements 3. One Right rear subframe mounting point Reinforcement 4. One Left rear subframe mounting point Reinforcement5. Two cross member spacers 6. Two trunk block off plates Applications: 1999 - 2005 (E46 3- series and M3)When would it be a good time to perform this work on my car? You can save time if you are doing any rear suspension work, exhaust, or doing a differential fluid change.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Page 2
2 Directions: 1. Properly lift and support the car to access the rear suspension 2. Remove the rear suspension and fuel system as outlined in a repair manual 3. Place the reinforcements in the proper location. Use a maker to outline the 4 steel reinforcement plates, then remove all the paint and undercoating inside the outline and 1” outside of the outline. (A die grinder with wire wheel or sanding disk works well) NOTE: Any paint or undercoating on the welding surface will cause defects in the weld and weaken it. 4. Use the two 12x1.5 bolts supplied with the kit to hold any two plates in place in the stock mounting hole. You do not need to tighten the bolt much, as it is just there to line up the hole in the plate and chassis and hold the reinforcement in place when welding.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Page 3
3 5. In each of the reinforcement plates there are ½” holes that do not line up with anything. These holes are for making a rosette weld. The front plates have one hole and the rear two plates have two holes. Use a ½” drill bit to cut through the outer sheet metal of the chassis. Do not drill too deep, as you are just trying to get to the inner sheet metal to tie it all together. The plate can now be welded. Tip: Use a factory stud or bolt screwed in thechassis for a good ground point in one of the other mounting points you are not welding around. Fill in the holes with a rosette weld first, then weld around the outer edge of the reinforcement. On the front reinforcements you do not need to weld the entire way around the plate, a stitch weld is sufficient. 6. After welding all the plates grind the rosettes and any high points so they are flush with the plate. 7. Clean any welding residue and burnt paint off. We suggest using seam sealer where you have stitch welded. Primer and paint all bare metal. We suggest doing this here so it can dry while you work on the next step.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Page 4
4 8. Remove the trunk interior to gain access to the top of the rear subframe mounting point. This is where the first crack in the sheet metal starts, in a place that is not clearly visible. Place the two 3”x3.5” sheet metal plates in the trunk as seen below. Draw a line around them, and make another line about ¼” inside the line you just traced. Use a cut off wheel to cut the sheet metal out inside the inner lines. This will make the hole smaller than the sheet metal rectangle supplied with the kit. This will be helpful later.9. Inside each cut out you are going to see three rosette welds. Cut out a section of the sheet metal between the three welds “kind of in a triangle shape” (see after pic below). This is done because the three spot welds are not sufficient surface area to hold the load placed on it, and this will increase the surface area and also fix any cracks that may have started (this is where they begin).Tips:A. Clean the inner sheet metal before cutting. This will help when it is time to weld. This section is sprayed with a factory rust protector that is very flammable. B. Use a cut off wheel, it helps if you have a used cut off blade that is worn down and is a bit smaller.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Page 5
5 10. Weld the upper sheet metal to the lower sheet metal around the area you just cut out. If you have any existing cracks in the sheet metal from fatigue, weld them up at this point. Clean any welding residue and burnt paint off.Primer and paint all bare metal inside the box section. 11. Place the 3” x 3.5” steel plates over the hole. Butt the plate up against the lip in the sheet metal toward the front of the car. Tack weld it in place by the lip. Place two more tack welds about half way down the plate just before factory sheet metal starts to curve down. Bend the rest of the plate to contour the factory sheet metal and spot weld in place. You do not need to weld the entire way around the plate, a stitch weld is sufficient. Clean anywelding residue and burnt paint off. We suggest using seam sealer any place you may have stitch welded. Primer and paint all bear metal. We suggest doing this now so it can dry while you work on reinstalling the rear suspension. 12. Install the rear Suspension as outlined in the repair manual with one exception: When installing the aluminumcross member on 3 series or the steel cross member on M3 you will need to use the two spacers supplied with the kit. Warning: if you do not use the spacers you may crack the cross member. Place a small dab of RTV silicone between the cross member and the spacer. This will help keep the spacers from getting lost if the cross member is removed in the future. 13. Install trunk interior and any other components that you removed from car. Have an alignment done to assure proper adjustment. Test drive car.
-------
------
The E46 rear driveline and suspension are very similar to that of the E36. An unfortunate side effect of this is that the E46 also shares some of the same problems as the E36. One of these problems is the rear mounting points for the subframe, which can rip out from their spots in the sheet metal (see figure 1). This happens because the rear differential transmits the torsional load from the enginethrough the subframe, then into the chassis. This constant loading and unloading weakens the sheet metal and causes it to fatigue and separate from the chassis. BMW tried to fix this problem in the E46 by placing a cross member on the front two mounting points ofthe subframe. This cross member keeps the front mounting points from having problems by placing the bushing and the stud indouble-sheer, thus reducing the twisting action on the sheet metal. The unfortunate side effect of this is that the load from the front ofthe subframe now gets transmitted to the left rear of the subframe. This is where we have seen many failures of the chassis on lowmileage street cars and race cars. This product reinforces the chassis sheet metal at the subframe mounting points. We do this by thickening the metal and distributing the load over a larger area. This kit will save time when repairing the chassis, and is also strongly recommended as a preventative maintenance item. Notes: The rear suspension, rear subframe, and exhaust must be removed to perform this job.Warning: Requires Welding. Only a professional welder should perform this work. The ECU, alternator, and battery should all bedisconnected before welding to prevent electrical damage. The welding machine should be directly grounded to the chassis, not to any suspension parts. It is also strongly recommended that the trunk interior, and fuel tank are removed and all fuel lines are capped toreduce the fire hazard while welding. Parts list for kit: (See Figure 2) 1. Two 12mm x 1.5 bolts2. Two front subframe mounting point Reinforcements 3. One Right rear subframe mounting point Reinforcement 4. One Left rear subframe mounting point Reinforcement5. Two cross member spacers 6. Two trunk block off plates Applications: 1999 - 2005 (E46 3- series and M3)When would it be a good time to perform this work on my car? You can save time if you are doing any rear suspension work, exhaust, or doing a differential fluid change.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Page 2
2 Directions: 1. Properly lift and support the car to access the rear suspension 2. Remove the rear suspension and fuel system as outlined in a repair manual 3. Place the reinforcements in the proper location. Use a maker to outline the 4 steel reinforcement plates, then remove all the paint and undercoating inside the outline and 1” outside of the outline. (A die grinder with wire wheel or sanding disk works well) NOTE: Any paint or undercoating on the welding surface will cause defects in the weld and weaken it. 4. Use the two 12x1.5 bolts supplied with the kit to hold any two plates in place in the stock mounting hole. You do not need to tighten the bolt much, as it is just there to line up the hole in the plate and chassis and hold the reinforcement in place when welding.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Page 3
3 5. In each of the reinforcement plates there are ½” holes that do not line up with anything. These holes are for making a rosette weld. The front plates have one hole and the rear two plates have two holes. Use a ½” drill bit to cut through the outer sheet metal of the chassis. Do not drill too deep, as you are just trying to get to the inner sheet metal to tie it all together. The plate can now be welded. Tip: Use a factory stud or bolt screwed in thechassis for a good ground point in one of the other mounting points you are not welding around. Fill in the holes with a rosette weld first, then weld around the outer edge of the reinforcement. On the front reinforcements you do not need to weld the entire way around the plate, a stitch weld is sufficient. 6. After welding all the plates grind the rosettes and any high points so they are flush with the plate. 7. Clean any welding residue and burnt paint off. We suggest using seam sealer where you have stitch welded. Primer and paint all bare metal. We suggest doing this here so it can dry while you work on the next step.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Page 4
4 8. Remove the trunk interior to gain access to the top of the rear subframe mounting point. This is where the first crack in the sheet metal starts, in a place that is not clearly visible. Place the two 3”x3.5” sheet metal plates in the trunk as seen below. Draw a line around them, and make another line about ¼” inside the line you just traced. Use a cut off wheel to cut the sheet metal out inside the inner lines. This will make the hole smaller than the sheet metal rectangle supplied with the kit. This will be helpful later.9. Inside each cut out you are going to see three rosette welds. Cut out a section of the sheet metal between the three welds “kind of in a triangle shape” (see after pic below). This is done because the three spot welds are not sufficient surface area to hold the load placed on it, and this will increase the surface area and also fix any cracks that may have started (this is where they begin).Tips:A. Clean the inner sheet metal before cutting. This will help when it is time to weld. This section is sprayed with a factory rust protector that is very flammable. B. Use a cut off wheel, it helps if you have a used cut off blade that is worn down and is a bit smaller.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Page 5
5 10. Weld the upper sheet metal to the lower sheet metal around the area you just cut out. If you have any existing cracks in the sheet metal from fatigue, weld them up at this point. Clean any welding residue and burnt paint off.Primer and paint all bare metal inside the box section. 11. Place the 3” x 3.5” steel plates over the hole. Butt the plate up against the lip in the sheet metal toward the front of the car. Tack weld it in place by the lip. Place two more tack welds about half way down the plate just before factory sheet metal starts to curve down. Bend the rest of the plate to contour the factory sheet metal and spot weld in place. You do not need to weld the entire way around the plate, a stitch weld is sufficient. Clean anywelding residue and burnt paint off. We suggest using seam sealer any place you may have stitch welded. Primer and paint all bear metal. We suggest doing this now so it can dry while you work on reinstalling the rear suspension. 12. Install the rear Suspension as outlined in the repair manual with one exception: When installing the aluminumcross member on 3 series or the steel cross member on M3 you will need to use the two spacers supplied with the kit. Warning: if you do not use the spacers you may crack the cross member. Place a small dab of RTV silicone between the cross member and the spacer. This will help keep the spacers from getting lost if the cross member is removed in the future. 13. Install trunk interior and any other components that you removed from car. Have an alignment done to assure proper adjustment. Test drive car.
-------
AnGeLiCdEmOn108
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Do the 0-100 km/h figures for the E36 328i automatic apply to the 4 speed version or the 5 speed version? [/quote]
wglee, not to sure about that. got the information from
http://bmw.hlabs.spb.ru/b3.html
AnGeLiCdEmOn108
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e46fanatic,
very interesting article you have there. there are some pictures missing which has been discribed in the article. by any chance do you still have the pictures so that i can have a better idea. if it is from a www, kindly share the www address.
cheers...
very interesting article you have there. there are some pictures missing which has been discribed in the article. by any chance do you still have the pictures so that i can have a better idea. if it is from a www, kindly share the www address.
cheers...
E46Fanatic
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There is quite an extensive amt of owner experiences with this issue. You can google it to find out more... I just googled it and found more links..as well. Quite an interesting read below..
------
Sub Frame Failure - E36
Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999
From: KC
Subject:
Can anyone who has done the following repair/preventive measure please
shed some light on this subject. As I understand it, from D. Finch's
explanation, the problem is that the right (and eventually the left)
rear sub frame where the control arm is mounted to the body may be
susceptible to fatigue (especially on cars with modified suspensions
and/or race tires). Apparently the "hat" that is spot welded to the
unibody and the three bolts that are welded through it can pull out.
This eventually leads to a total failure of the surrounding sheet metal
and/or hat resulting in costly repairs. The questions are:
1.) Is it strictly the three spot welds that are susceptible to failure,
or can the three studs pull through the hat as well?
2.) Would the following be sufficient to prevent the problem from
occurring? Welding completely (360 deg) around the hat, and welding a
(what size) piece of (material) aluminum/steel on top/underside of the
hat so that the bolts go through both
(reinforcement and original) pieces?
3.) How difficult is it to gain access to this area and effect repairs,
and is it worth doing if the the car is going to be taken to the track?
What special precautions need to be taken, i.e., is the fuel tank in the
vicinity of where the welding needs to be done?
If anyone has done this repair/preventive procedure would you please
write up a very detailed "how to" so that I may make the necessary
improvements and not worry about this happening. I have looked in the
FAQ's but did not see any posts on how to prevent this from occurring.
Any suggestions are greatly appreciated. Thanks
Cornelis (KC) Kome
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999
From: "Duane Collie"
Subject: E36 Stuff
>Subject:
>
>Can anyone who has done the following repair/preventive measure please
>shed some light on this subject. As I understand it, from D. Finch's
>explanation, the problem is that the right (and eventually the left)
>rear sub frame where the control arm is mounted to the body may be
>susceptible to fatigue (especially on cars with modified suspensions
>and/or race tires).
While this can and does happen, my understanding from the pros on the race
teams is that this is only caused by excessive bottoming out of the
suspension. When the suspension hits full travel in the rear, the
subsequent forces rack the bushing area and tear/fatigue it, causing flex
which in turn rips out the sheet metal. If you don't bottom your suspension
out, you should not have an issue. Keep an eye on it and watch your driving
habits. I inspect mine every time the wheels are changed - so far all is
good. But I don't launch over railroad tracks with the car, either. If you
really want to weld them up - get a pro to do it.
>can someone tell me what that wire is for that comes out of the left
>(driver side) front caliper? i noticed that the other side doesn't have
>one..
Brake wear sensor. Wrap 'em up and tie em off to the strut. Things are a
PITA and when they grind down, they short out as designed and the "BRAKE
PAD" warning stays on until you go to the dealer and buy a new sensor lead.
So if you use the feature, you haveta replace 'em $$$. Superior German
Engineering INDEED!
- - Duane Collie
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999
From: Jason Lile
Subject: Re: E36 Stuff
Duane Collie wrote:
>
> >Subject:
> >
> >Can anyone who has done the following repair/preventive measure please
> >shed some light on this subject. As I understand it, from D. Finch's
> >explanation, the problem is that the right (and eventually the left)
> >rear sub frame where the control arm is mounted to the body may be
> >susceptible to fatigue (especially on cars with modified suspensions
> >and/or race tires).
>
> While this can and does happen, my understanding from the pros on the race
> teams is that this is only caused by excessive bottoming out of the suspension.
Well, I wouldn't go that far We sold a 94 325i AT car with 20k miles
to a 5' 2" female school teacher a couple years ago. In those two years
she has put about 10k miles on the car (I doubt she bottomed it out
racing over too many railroad tracks). She just had this very
expensive repair done a few months ago. I think this problem will
become more and more common as these cars get older... regardless of how
they've been driven. FWIW, IMHO, IME, etc...
___________________________________________________________
Jason Lile Administrator
Parts Manager BMW Parts Digest
Zionsville Autosport
http://www.zionsvilleautosport.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999
From: Marco Romani
Subject: Re: [uuc] E36 M3 Sub Frame Cracks
Some one today mentioned to look for subframe cracks on E30 M3 as part of a
used car inspection. Well all you E36 M3 types guess what? We too are
blessed with the cracked subframe problem. I replaced mine last week due to
both motor mounts practically not being mounted to the subframe. Big cracks
and actually some missing metal. The replacement subframe was of a
different design of the original one, fewer holes and thicker metal where
the engine mounts are bolted. The new subframe has a redesign date of Jun
98 I believe.
Symptoms where a squeaking metal on metal noise when going from lock to lock
on the steering wheel and a general feeling that the front end of the car
wasn't attached correctly.
Yes the car visits the track at least 8 days a year, but with only 60k miles
I was surprised to see cracks that bad. I suspect the stiffer suspension
has something to do with it, HR and Konis.
Watch out and becareful out there.
Marco
95 M3
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999
From: Steve Walsh
Subject: RE:
Cornelis (KC) Kome asks about rear sub frame failure. I have experienced
both to one degree or another.
There are 2 distinct failure modes. The first are the 4 mounting points
for the rear sub frame or differential carrier. On non-M3 (like my
325is)
the mounting points are not reinforced, as they are on the M3's. They
tend to fail in the following order: Rear passenger side, forward
passenger side, forward driver side, rear driver side. In my case the
rear passenger mount had completely torn around it's circumference, and
the forward passenger side had torn 270 degrees around the mount. The
forward drivers side mount had also cracked tangentially from the mount.
The repair requires removal of the rear suspension, differential, fuel
tank, rear seats rear carpet, exhaust, battery, yadda yadda... In case
the forward differential carrier cross member was also replaced. In
short,
many hours, big $$$. Despite being out of warranty (88K miles), in did
manage to get BMWNA to pick up the tab. For non-M owners the M3
reinforcement plates are available, and these are the part numbers:
41 00 2 256 495
41 00 2 256 496
41 11 2 256 497
41 11 2 256 498. They each cost $25.73.
Note: they require the aforementioned rear sub chassis disassembly to
install them !
The second mode of failure is the rear trailing arm bushings and mounts.
This is the failure mode that David Finch has reported in detail in the
past. In short, the rear trailing arms mount to the chassis under the
rear toe adjustment plates. These plates are held to the chassis through
3 bolts. The threaded receptacles for these bolts are prone to fail
(circumferential cracks), and under extreme situations will tear the
'hat' from the chassis.
In my case I was lucky that there was no cracking of these points when I
replaced the rear bushings.
In my experience the best thing to do, if you suspect damage (mysterious
clunks), is to check it early. Even though replacing the rear bushings
cost me about $750, it is certainly cheaper that repairs David Finch
described. The health of the bushings is directly related to the stress
placed upon them, and visual inspection is difficult, at best. If they
are worn, then they are not anchoring the trailing arms correctly. This
movement, and the stress of cornering will transfer additional torque
(stress) to these 3 mounting points.
I have read a possible method for 'beefing up' these mounting points,
but don't remember where I read it. Check at the NJ chapters web page
------
Sub Frame Failure - E36
Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999
From: KC
Subject:
Can anyone who has done the following repair/preventive measure please
shed some light on this subject. As I understand it, from D. Finch's
explanation, the problem is that the right (and eventually the left)
rear sub frame where the control arm is mounted to the body may be
susceptible to fatigue (especially on cars with modified suspensions
and/or race tires). Apparently the "hat" that is spot welded to the
unibody and the three bolts that are welded through it can pull out.
This eventually leads to a total failure of the surrounding sheet metal
and/or hat resulting in costly repairs. The questions are:
1.) Is it strictly the three spot welds that are susceptible to failure,
or can the three studs pull through the hat as well?
2.) Would the following be sufficient to prevent the problem from
occurring? Welding completely (360 deg) around the hat, and welding a
(what size) piece of (material) aluminum/steel on top/underside of the
hat so that the bolts go through both
(reinforcement and original) pieces?
3.) How difficult is it to gain access to this area and effect repairs,
and is it worth doing if the the car is going to be taken to the track?
What special precautions need to be taken, i.e., is the fuel tank in the
vicinity of where the welding needs to be done?
If anyone has done this repair/preventive procedure would you please
write up a very detailed "how to" so that I may make the necessary
improvements and not worry about this happening. I have looked in the
FAQ's but did not see any posts on how to prevent this from occurring.
Any suggestions are greatly appreciated. Thanks
Cornelis (KC) Kome
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999
From: "Duane Collie"
Subject: E36 Stuff
>Subject:
>
>Can anyone who has done the following repair/preventive measure please
>shed some light on this subject. As I understand it, from D. Finch's
>explanation, the problem is that the right (and eventually the left)
>rear sub frame where the control arm is mounted to the body may be
>susceptible to fatigue (especially on cars with modified suspensions
>and/or race tires).
While this can and does happen, my understanding from the pros on the race
teams is that this is only caused by excessive bottoming out of the
suspension. When the suspension hits full travel in the rear, the
subsequent forces rack the bushing area and tear/fatigue it, causing flex
which in turn rips out the sheet metal. If you don't bottom your suspension
out, you should not have an issue. Keep an eye on it and watch your driving
habits. I inspect mine every time the wheels are changed - so far all is
good. But I don't launch over railroad tracks with the car, either. If you
really want to weld them up - get a pro to do it.
>can someone tell me what that wire is for that comes out of the left
>(driver side) front caliper? i noticed that the other side doesn't have
>one..
Brake wear sensor. Wrap 'em up and tie em off to the strut. Things are a
PITA and when they grind down, they short out as designed and the "BRAKE
PAD" warning stays on until you go to the dealer and buy a new sensor lead.
So if you use the feature, you haveta replace 'em $$$. Superior German
Engineering INDEED!
- - Duane Collie
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999
From: Jason Lile
Subject: Re: E36 Stuff
Duane Collie wrote:
>
> >Subject:
> >
> >Can anyone who has done the following repair/preventive measure please
> >shed some light on this subject. As I understand it, from D. Finch's
> >explanation, the problem is that the right (and eventually the left)
> >rear sub frame where the control arm is mounted to the body may be
> >susceptible to fatigue (especially on cars with modified suspensions
> >and/or race tires).
>
> While this can and does happen, my understanding from the pros on the race
> teams is that this is only caused by excessive bottoming out of the suspension.
Well, I wouldn't go that far
We sold a 94 325i AT car with 20k milesto a 5' 2" female school teacher a couple years ago. In those two years
she has put about 10k miles on the car (I doubt she bottomed it out
racing over too many railroad tracks
). She just had this veryexpensive repair done a few months ago. I think this problem will
become more and more common as these cars get older... regardless of how
they've been driven. FWIW, IMHO, IME, etc...
___________________________________________________________
Jason Lile Administrator
Parts Manager BMW Parts Digest
Zionsville Autosport
http://www.zionsvilleautosport.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999
From: Marco Romani
Subject: Re: [uuc] E36 M3 Sub Frame Cracks
Some one today mentioned to look for subframe cracks on E30 M3 as part of a
used car inspection. Well all you E36 M3 types guess what? We too are
blessed with the cracked subframe problem. I replaced mine last week due to
both motor mounts practically not being mounted to the subframe. Big cracks
and actually some missing metal. The replacement subframe was of a
different design of the original one, fewer holes and thicker metal where
the engine mounts are bolted. The new subframe has a redesign date of Jun
98 I believe.
Symptoms where a squeaking metal on metal noise when going from lock to lock
on the steering wheel and a general feeling that the front end of the car
wasn't attached correctly.
Yes the car visits the track at least 8 days a year, but with only 60k miles
I was surprised to see cracks that bad. I suspect the stiffer suspension
has something to do with it, HR and Konis.
Watch out and becareful out there.
Marco
95 M3
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999
From: Steve Walsh
Subject: RE:
Cornelis (KC) Kome asks about rear sub frame failure. I have experienced
both to one degree or another.
There are 2 distinct failure modes. The first are the 4 mounting points
for the rear sub frame or differential carrier. On non-M3 (like my
325is)
the mounting points are not reinforced, as they are on the M3's. They
tend to fail in the following order: Rear passenger side, forward
passenger side, forward driver side, rear driver side. In my case the
rear passenger mount had completely torn around it's circumference, and
the forward passenger side had torn 270 degrees around the mount. The
forward drivers side mount had also cracked tangentially from the mount.
The repair requires removal of the rear suspension, differential, fuel
tank, rear seats rear carpet, exhaust, battery, yadda yadda... In case
the forward differential carrier cross member was also replaced. In
short,
many hours, big $$$. Despite being out of warranty (88K miles), in did
manage to get BMWNA to pick up the tab. For non-M owners the M3
reinforcement plates are available, and these are the part numbers:
41 00 2 256 495
41 00 2 256 496
41 11 2 256 497
41 11 2 256 498. They each cost $25.73.
Note: they require the aforementioned rear sub chassis disassembly to
install them !
The second mode of failure is the rear trailing arm bushings and mounts.
This is the failure mode that David Finch has reported in detail in the
past. In short, the rear trailing arms mount to the chassis under the
rear toe adjustment plates. These plates are held to the chassis through
3 bolts. The threaded receptacles for these bolts are prone to fail
(circumferential cracks), and under extreme situations will tear the
'hat' from the chassis.
In my case I was lucky that there was no cracking of these points when I
replaced the rear bushings.
In my experience the best thing to do, if you suspect damage (mysterious
clunks), is to check it early. Even though replacing the rear bushings
cost me about $750, it is certainly cheaper that repairs David Finch
described. The health of the bushings is directly related to the stress
placed upon them, and visual inspection is difficult, at best. If they
are worn, then they are not anchoring the trailing arms correctly. This
movement, and the stress of cornering will transfer additional torque
(stress) to these 3 mounting points.
I have read a possible method for 'beefing up' these mounting points,
but don't remember where I read it. Check at the NJ chapters web page
AnGeLiCdEmOn108
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bro now this is scary lah... no complaints from e46 user because maybe they have enhanced the part or the car is still new.
heard that AB has the multiple point check... any idea whether they will check this kind of parts as well...? how much is it?
heard that AB has the multiple point check... any idea whether they will check this kind of parts as well...? how much is it?
Crymson
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Never driven a E46 325i before but I have no complains with my E36 328. Love the power from the moment I got this baby - the pick up, handling. Not a technical guy myself ... but since parts are easily available and in-expensive, I'm sticking to my E36. Althought I was contemplating to get a E46 325i next year but after reading this thread .... naaw!
AnGeLiCdEmOn108
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thanks for the update pall... mmm another e36 lover...
k:
anxious
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Anor very interesting thread. More and more of my questions are being answered.
Anyway. I would agree that an E36 328 probably cant match the newer E46 325 but for less than half the price it's quite a bargain. You definitely would get more than half the fun and satisfaction.
Downside......double road tax and more maintainance.
Anyway. I would agree that an E36 328 probably cant match the newer E46 325 but for less than half the price it's quite a bargain. You definitely would get more than half the fun and satisfaction.
Downside......double road tax and more maintainance.
alxy
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Anyone care to explain difference between E46 328 and E46 325 (yes, both are E46)? Driving experience I mean. I know all about the specs. I am set on the E46 (328 would be around year 2000, while 325 is around 2001/02), but wondering whether the extra 35Nm the 328 has over the 325 is truly worth it?
anaksarawak
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The look!! E46 sure have both.. interior and exterior... E46 in Black or Artic Silver will wow many gals.. But if budget is concern then E36 will sure get you a few Ah Lian too..
anaksarawak
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Guess my UDM craze have cause "the funny bones" to be active. ahhaah.
By the way, did anyone ever ask why they own a UDM??
Especially 318i with 19" rims??
...... TO WOW the gals la... ahhaahaha!
By the way, did anyone ever ask why they own a UDM??
Especially 318i with 19" rims??
...... TO WOW the gals la... ahhaahaha!
