BMW on NGV or other Fuel Saver

[tony5050]

hi guys,

just to share a lil' experience tht i have on my office Proton Perdana. Well, its a yr 2004 V6 and we installed the the NGV kits for a test run.
Spent around RM3500 for the whole installation and basic services for the car e.g. new spark plugs...etc etc
The car is used mainly for urban travelling, from Port Klang to Rawang to KL.....
Calculation from June until today, the car is doing around 150km/RM9 gas. I assume tht's a very good result for us. As for the power lacking issue that almost everyone is complaining, yes, we can see abit during the high load acceleration, but after torque pick up after 2500rpm, almost no difference!
For the lack of station isssue, well, lucky us to have a Petronas right opposite my office which every visit will not take more then 5mins..

Generally, natural gas needs a little higher compression ratio then a typical gasoline engine in order to have efficient combustion, around 11.2:1 or something like that.
As for the combustion temperature, personally, i think the is still not that much different from gasoline IF it is Spark iginited. Auto ignition temperature however for Gas however, is around 300 F higer then the gasoline.
but then again, NGV on BMWs, i will have no objection for it if more stations are set up, and we are definitely going Greener!!..
I've a fren in Bangkok who's driving a Merc new E-class came standard with OEM NGV. Fantastic!!!

 

[anaksarawak]

hi guys,

just to share a lil' experience tht i have on my office Proton Perdana. Well, its a yr 2004 V6 and we installed the the NGV kits for a test run.
Spent around RM3500 for the whole installation and basic services for the car e.g. new spark plugs...etc etc
The car is used mainly for urban travelling, from Port Klang to Rawang to KL.....
Calculation from June until today, the car is doing around 150km/RM9 gas. I assume tht's a very good result for us. As for the power lacking issue that almost everyone is complaining, yes, we can see abit during the high load acceleration, but after torque pick up after 2500rpm, almost no difference!
For the lack of station isssue, well, lucky us to have a Petronas right opposite my office which every visit will not take more then 5mins..

Generally, natural gas needs a little higher compression ratio then a typical gasoline engine in order to have efficient combustion, around 11.2:1 or something like that.
As for the combustion temperature, personally, i think the is still not that much different from gasoline IF it is Spark iginited. Auto ignition temperature however for Gas however, is around 300 F higer then the gasoline.
but then again, NGV on BMWs, i will have no objection for it if more stations are set up, and we are definitely going Greener!!..
I've a fren in Bangkok who's driving a Merc new E-class came standard with OEM NGV. Fantastic!!!

Thanks Tony.. nice write up... Can you share more details at http://www.bimmersclub.com/viewtopic.php?t=1663&mforum=bimmers

We would like to know where is the place u have the conversion done and type of equipment used

Thanks

 

[tony5050]

hi geoff,

thanks. The kit tht i have on the perdana is one of the lowest spec, for fuel injection engine point of view.
It is called a manual mixer system, where the Gas is injected through a mixer placed right before the throttle.
I have a switch in-car where i can see the level of gas in storage left and able to switch from Gas to Petrol to Gas mode.
Normally, for an engine to run on gas mode, it will have to be properly heated up first, i.e. may be after 2-3minutes driving. Therefore i iwll have to start the car with petrol everytime, and switch it to gas mode after driving the car for a few hundred meters manually, WITHOUT having to stop the car or whatsoever.
There're more expensive and sophisticated kit like those Injection kit. the word "Injection" here does not refer to the fuel injection engine, but the way of the gas being delivered into our engine.
E.g. a 4 cyclinder fuel injection engine with 4 fuel injectors, then the NG(Natural Gas) system will also have 4 injection point to each cylinder, which are all controlled by a closed loop system, governed by an ECU.
Morning cold start will be automatically in Petrol mode and Gas will kick in when possible. Many other characteristics in the control mode like the high load switching and etc. Nevertheless, there's a also a switch in the car where we can see which mode is out car running on.

My point of view, i would stick to the manual system to avoid any ECU faulty, and its almost RM 2500 cheaper!!!!......


cheers!

 

[anaksarawak]

hi geoff,

thanks. The kit tht i have on the perdana is one of the lowest spec, for fuel injection engine point of view.
It is called a manual mixer system, where the Gas is injected through a mixer placed right before the throttle.
I have a switch in-car where i can see the level of gas in storage left and able to switch from Gas to Petrol to Gas mode.
Normally, for an engine to run on gas mode, it will have to be properly heated up first, i.e. may be after 2-3minutes driving. Therefore i iwll have to start the car with petrol everytime, and switch it to gas mode after driving the car for a few hundred meters manually, WITHOUT having to stop the car or whatsoever.
There're more expensive and sophisticated kit like those Injection kit. the word "Injection" here does not refer to the fuel injection engine, but the way of the gas being delivered into our engine.
E.g. a 4 cyclinder fuel injection engine with 4 fuel injectors, then the NG(Natural Gas) system will also have 4 injection point to each cylinder, which are all controlled by a closed loop system, governed by an ECU.
Morning cold start will be automatically in Petrol mode and Gas will kick in when possible. Many other characteristics in the control mode like the high load switching and etc. Nevertheless, there's a also a switch in the car where we can see which mode is out car running on.

My point of view, i would stick to the manual system to avoid any ECU faulty, and its almost RM 2500 cheaper!!!!......


cheers!

Thank you so much for sharing bro.. Do your system come with TAP (Timining advance Processor)?? I heard with TAP engine performance will be better

 

[tony5050]

hi Geoff,

no prob. nah, i dont think the system i have includes the timing advance processor.
by the way, by advancing and retarding the timing, due to the relatively low compression for Gas combustion, really helps to maintain the torque curve. very suprisingly, i went to HKS Thailand last week, their own HKS NGV kit is due April 2008!!!...comes with programable ECU, just like the TAP u mentioned!

 

[anaksarawak]

Finally I have the answer to the famous question... Can BMW run on NGV?

Answer is YES but not for all BMW.

It will kill the new engine with light alloy tech material but will work well for cast iron engine.

 

[drag86]

Hi Geoffrey,
Any comments from using the fuel saver (magnetic type). There are 2 different types,
> Positive + Negative, which holds the magnet together.
> Positive + Positive , which will goes against it.
Tried the second in my E28, make alot of improvement in the fuel comsumed. (improve by around 20%, that for mix driving, abit of omhh in term of engine power.)

 

[anaksarawak]

Hi Geoffrey,
Any comments from using the fuel saver (magnetic type). There are 2 different types,
> Positive + Negative, which holds the magnet together.
> Positive + Positive , which will goes against it.
Tried the second in my E28, make alot of improvement in the fuel comsumed. (improve by around 20%, that for mix driving, abit of omhh in term of engine power.)

Never tried that but I heard many said it does help a little

 

[astroboy]

Wow! great innovative discussion here. There's this scam in the internet where they will sell u a homemade device where it will electronically break the Hydrogen molecule from water with 12V battery power and use the Hydrogen as alternative source to power our engine, same like NGV/Petrol setup. So the emission is water vapor.. sound too good to be true yah. Those who are worry about FC or Global Warming is their perfect prey!

Yes, you can move a vehicle with Hydrogen but the actual fact is the energy cost involved in separating the Hydrogen molecule from water is much higher if we just use the energy to move the vehicle instead of moving the vehicle from the Hydrogen gain. It does not make any economical sense..

And FYI, you pay higher road tax with NGV cars.. cause Malaysia Boleh!

 

[anaksarawak]

Wow! great innovative discussion here. There's this scam in the internet where they will sell u a homemade device where it will electronically break the Hydrogen molecule from water with 12V battery power and use the Hydrogen as alternative source to power our engine, same like NGV/Petrol setup. So the emission is water vapor.. sound too good to be true yah. Those who are worry about FC or Global Warming is their perfect prey!

Yes, you can move a vehicle with Hydrogen but the actual fact is the energy cost involved in separating the Hydrogen molecule from water is much higher if we just use the energy to move the vehicle instead of moving the vehicle from the Hydrogen gain. It does not make any economical sense..

And FYI, you pay higher road tax with NGV cars.. cause Malaysia Boleh!

Actually you will get 25% discount of roadtax if you run on NGV

 

[6099]

Yes, I also heard you get a 25% discount. This is a great thread and I think, IMHO, as petrol prices skyrocket, (inevitabe!!!) NGV will actually allow us mere money mortals (kids to raise, mortgage to pay blablabla) to keep using our UDMs rather than selling off for a dime a dozen jap car. Yes, the manual system seems like a good deal and proven too since all cabbies (at least the ones I spoke to) are using it. As well, queues at stations are not that bad nowadays la. The Petronas in Glenmarie (5mins from my place :top, always see 5-6 taxis only. Other stations I know of are in Bangsar, KLCC, and along LDP, near the ss2 overhead.

 

[6099]

Yes, I also heard you get a 25% discount. This is a great thread and I think, IMHO, as petrol prices skyrocket, (inevitabe!!!) NGV will actually allow us mere money mortals (kids to raise, mortgage to pay blablabla) to keep using our UDMs rather than selling off for a dime a dozen jap car. Yes, the manual system seems like a good deal and proven too since all cabbies (at least the ones I spoke to) are using it. As well, queues at stations are not that bad nowadays la. The Petronas in Glenmarie (5mins from my place :top, always see 5-6 taxis only. Other stations I know of are in Bangsar, KLCC, and along LDP, near the ss2 overhead.

 

[funfer_fahrer]

BMW is making its way to Singapore in introducing the hydrogen powered car. It is something like NGV concept where you need to install an extra tank in your boot. With the hydrogen powered car you can actually switch mode whether to use petrol or hydrogen. So far, in Germany I've seen some E38 using this system. It won't be long before we can have the chance of trying it. So, I guess you better hold on first before proceeding with your NGV conversion. For more info visit:

www.bmwcleanenergy.com.sg

 

[astroboy]

Hydrogen synthesis is not cheap le even though the ingredient is water (H2O). Dunno how much will they sell the hydrogen refill..

From the aspect of physic, the energy required to extract Hydrogen from water to be able to move a car for 1km, is sufficient to move the car much further if the energy were to power the car directly. So why remove your pant when u can buang angin through your pants.. ??

NGV is different because that's just a byproduct during the refinement process when extracting kerosene, petrol, bitumen, bla..bla..bla..

 

[funfer_fahrer]

I don't know for sure at this stage whether BMW wants to go all out with its hydrogen powered cars because they are busy promoting its electric hybrid efficient dynamics. Even the X6 that is going to be launched this Sept is using a 3.0L petrol engine. So, nobody knows for sure their direction. The Japs made it clear that they wanted to push for electric hybrid.

 

[astroboy]

Aiyaa... go solar la.. and call it day-time-car.. Got sun, we drive, no sun we sail..

 

[funfer_fahrer]

A cheaper and most logical alternative would be - a kancil 660 Manual for everyday car, and a BMW for TT session, mapler outings and holiday with the family. By doing so, the bimmer won't be "destroyed" with all the NGV modification stuffs, can still maintain its resale value and you won't feel guity for thrashing the kancil everyday. Oh yes, you won't be thinking about the expansion tank in the kancil either.

 

[funfer_fahrer]

Here's an interesting article by Andrew Frankel:

If most of the world’s largest car manufacturers are right, it’s no longer going to be something that goes pop in the science lab or sets fire to 1930s airships. It is the fuel of our future, with the potential to rival the invention of the the first car in 1886 in terms of its impact on personal transport.
The problem for car makers is how to harness the gas and how to make it commercially viable. Last week two cars that are at the respective poles of hydrogen car design were demonstrated to a small number of journalists.

Both will be available to the public — albeit in restricted ways — by 2008. However, having attended both events, I found it not only impossible to judge which technology will prevail, but it became clear that genuine mainstream public ownership is years and possibly decades away.

The first is the BMW Hydrogen 7, which the German company will offer to selected members of the public on a lease basis next year. It’s based on BMW’s flagship 760iL limousine and uses liquid hydrogen stored in a separate tank from the petrol as a supplementary fuel source.

Because the internal combustion engine can run on either fuel with little need for modification, you can switch between hydrogen and petrol by pressing a button on the steering wheel. While the car is a little less refined when running on hydrogen than petrol, this may not matter too much when you consider that when there’s petrol in the engine it emits 332 grams of CO2 for every kilometre it travels but when it’s powered by hydrogen that figure falls to 5.2g/km.

The problems, however, are both numerous and serious. Comparatively trivial issues include a decimation of space in the back and boot to make way for both tanks, the fact it will travel only 125 miles on its hydrogen tank, and that if you leave it standing too long the hydrogen, which needs to be maintained at –253C to keep it liquid, will all boil off.

And you can’t park it in an enclosed space like your garage for fear of gas escaping from the tank and becoming trapped in an explosive pocket.

More thorny issues include the fact that there are just seven places in Europe where you can fill it. In Britain the only hydrogen refuelling station, a BP garage in Essex designed to service buses that run on the fuel, might conceivably close in January when the pilot hydrogen bus scheme comes to an end.

There are environmental issues, too. Although the CO2 emissions are minuscule at the point of use, this hides the so-called “well to wheel” pollution. At present the only commercially viable way to manufacture hydrogen is to extract it from natural gas, a process that itself emits large amounts of CO2.

I spent the best part of a day tooling in and around Berlin in a Hydrogen 7 and found it little different to drive than any other 7-series, just a little slower. BMW is committed to building 100 next year and putting them out on six-month loans to various political, sporting and environmental types who, it hopes, will help spread the word. No price is quoted.

Meanwhile, far away on the coast of southern California, another car manufacturer is making another commitment. This time it is Honda, and while it won’t talk numbers either it says it will put its FCX concept car into production in 2008 and that it will be driven not just by people who can generate good PR, but by proper members of the public too.

The differences between the BMW and Honda approaches are great. Rather than burn the hydrogen in the engine, as the BMW does, the Honda uses a fuel-cell stack that harnesses electricity created as a side effect of the chemical reaction that occurs between hydrogen and oxygen when they form water.

Fuel cell cars are nothing new, but this is the first to break beyond the concept stage and enter production. Its users still won’t own them — they’ll all be leased — and the numbers are likely to be modest, but as Steve Ellis, Honda’s manager of fuel cell marketing in the US, told me: “No other technology we know of has the ability to eliminate the vehicle from the environmental equation.” And that’s big stuff.

Critically, Honda also has a way around the supply infrastructure problem that undermines the BMW proposition. While BMW’s hydrogen needs to be frozen, Honda’s fuel cell car runs on compressed hydrogen that can be generated from a station owned not by BP or Shell, but by you.

The idea is to have a compact station in your home — 30in x 14in x 14in — that takes natural gas from the public supply and makes hydrogen for your car. And the FCX will go almost three times further than the BMW — 355 miles currently — on one fill.

Both Honda and BMW know that ultimately the only way to have a completely clean hydrogen car is to extract the hydrogen not from natural gas but from renewable sources such as solar, hydroelectric and wind power, but such is the cost of this technology that it is probably decades before it offers a commercially realistic means of providing hydrogen.

For now, though, time alone will tell whether BMW is right to back adapting the internal combustion engine to run on hydrogen, or whether Honda’s fuel cell holds the key to our future. To my mind Honda’s approach is more thoughtful and has the greatest potential, but the BMW way is more pragmatic and easier to visualise today.

And there is also the distinct possibility that neither approach is right, not least because obtaining reliable, clean sources of hydrogen on a worldwide scale at a price the consumer can afford will be an immensely greater challenge than setting up a limited pilot scheme.

All I can say with relative certainty is that the way this game plays out over the next 20 years of so will change not just the face of the automotive landscape, but the future of personal transport around the world. No pressure, then.

VITAL STATISTICS

Model BMW Hydrogen 7
Top speed 143mph
Range 125 miles (+310 petrol)
Max power 260bhp
Gas storage 7.8kg at -253C



Model Honda FCX
Top speed 100mph
Range 355 miles
Max power 95bhp
Gas storage 171 litres @ 350bar
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[apotelyt]

any members running NGV on their bimmers? Any deterimental effects to the engine?

 

[funfer_fahrer]

I am not sure how many have done the NGV conversion in this club. But, there is some driiling needs to be done to the manifolds. I don't quite like this idea. It still needs some petrol for starting since NGV is very dry. Running on NGV can be tricky. There are case of engnes idle erratically and frequent tuning is required.