Website programming - is this true?

[bmwcar]

Background:- In 2006, a group of 10 persons got together to design a website to cater to a certain group sharing the same passion. 1 of the members who was also running a website company (lets call him Member Hoster) stated that he could do the design of and hosting of the website for a fee which all other 9 members agreed to. After about 8 months of the website being up and running, it was agreed by the majority of the members to move it to an independent hoster (Independent Hoster) for independence sake......a date was set for transistion. With 2 days to go before end of transistion date, the Independent Hoster was appointed by the 9 members and was to download the website from the Member Hoster's server to his server....however, the Independent Hoster keyed in the wrong password and thus locked the password. This was then resolved the following day after the deadline and downloading began but the Member Hoster's server was then brought down midway through the download - thus the data transfer was incomplete. The member hoster's partner then said that she could recover it and park it in his server temporarily which some of the members agreed to - the recovery took 1 day and the website was back up and has been running fine for the last few months. However, once another Independent Hoster had been identified to do host the website, and after trying many times by most of the 9 other members to meet up with the Member Hoster to discuss next steps including confirmation of 1 member who they stated had yet to pay , the member hoster partner stated via electronic communication that to forget about the 1 members payment and that the website could not be transfered as during the recovery, the data for this website had to be linked in various areas of his server and thus could not be downloaded without great difficulty. Now for the 2 questions 1) what is this recovery process - thought that servers do a periodic back up? Can this fragmentation happen or should there be a back up that can be used?2) what about after recovery and back to the site being up that the data cannot be easily transfered - its linked in different folders? Is this possible? Thought all files should be in a folder? Any feedback would be very much appreciated.

 

[popeadrian]

Hmm..... it does seem odd. From my understanding of IT Servers (admittedly am not an IT/super tech savvy person so i might be a little skewed in my undestanding), the recovery process should be straightforward. All servers will do period backup of its files/contents etc. Which in theory means that if anything needs to be transfered/moved, the backup files will be migrated across first to maintain integrity. In the case of websites etc, the hosters usually take hte website offline for approx 24 hours (sometimes less. sometimes more) to transfer/migrate the current files across. This, i'm presuming, would be the files that were added on between the last backup and the current period.

Anyways, if an entire website can be burnt onto a CD for transfer, i dont understand why it would be so complicated.....

In terms of folder sharing, from my understanding, the only time that folders are shared is if the admininstrators are using information between their other clients...in short, cross referencing.

I could be wrong though....

 

[python_dev]

Hmm..... it does seem odd. From my understanding of IT Servers (admittedly am not an IT/super tech savvy person so i might be a little skewed in my undestanding), the recovery process should be straightforward. All servers will do period backup of its files/contents etc. Which in theory means that if anything needs to be transfered/moved, the backup files will be migrated across first to maintain integrity. In the case of websites etc, the hosters usually take hte website offline for approx 24 hours (sometimes less. sometimes more) to transfer/migrate the current files across. This, i'm presuming, would be the files that were added on between the last backup and the current period.

Anyways, if an entire website can be burnt onto a CD for transfer, i dont understand why it would be so complicated.....

In terms of folder sharing, from my understanding, the only time that folders are shared is if the admininstrators are using information between their other clients...in short, cross referencing.

I could be wrong though....

Ok, We'll cover over a few things from a profesional view...
1.) All Servers Should back up regularly, but not all really do, or know how to set-up the server to do it automatically.

2.)As far as data is concerned, being put all over the place seems a little silly to me, depends on the type of backup they did (could mean they backed up entire server and don't want to give all the server info.

3.)Also this depends on the type of backup that was done by the server, different control panels format thier backup in different ways and are not always compatable with new servers, most can be manually unzipped and rezipped etc, depends on how much effort the admin is willing to go to.. in this case I think it is not alot.

I have been managing servers and my own hosting company for 10 years and have seen alot that would surprise people.. E.G one of the largest hosting companies in Netherlands was started by a 17 year old guy who formatted his system 3 times in 3 days accidentally ( I know I had to repair it each time).
Server Back up procedures should be:
1.) local Backup
2.) Remote backup of files to another server.
3.) Hard backup to CD


This will ensure that you always have "A" copy of data for all sites.

Also note if I was the group at this time I would have made 2 people responsible for keeping a local copy of the website on thier computers. not 1, so in this case I would not just put blame on 1 person out of the group, better managment practice needed by all...

No Single points of failure, I practice this with my sites as well, local copies on 2 machines in 2 countries so if a personal computer fails I still have another copy.

 

[bmwcar]

thanks PD......

for quite a detailed reply...to summarise:-

1) the Member Hosters company or the company that manages their sites should be doing a back up and maybe should have had a back up for their server. If that was the case, they could have used the back up.

2) if a new server is being used, then there would be issues of the files 'being over the place' (sorry my IT knowledge is limited to the internet and google!) which can be easily rectified by moving it back.... but this would take minimal time for a website right?

3) with reference to the dual control instead of 1 person being in charge of the data, i think in hindsight alot of the 9 are probably wishing that they had heard your advice 1 year ago......

Thx again.

 

[python_dev]

1) the Member Hosters company or the company that manages their sites should be doing a back up and maybe should have had a back up for their server. If that was the case, they could have used the back up.
This also has a format dependency some companies back up all domains at once so could have structure like this:
backup.zip ---|----DomainA--|----Website_files_folder
.......................|........................|----Website_Server_configuration_info
.......................|----DomainB
.......................|----DomainC
.......................|----DomainE
if this was the case they would have to unzip all the sites then zip up as per example above the Website_files_folder , because they would not want to give access to all of the other sites info as well.. Not really difficult (Edit:Although can be time consuming, Some of my servers and amount of info could take about 4 hours to unzip and re-zip).


2) if a new server is being used, then there would be issues of the files 'being over the place' (sorry my IT knowledge is limited to the internet and google!) which can be easily rectified by moving it back.... but this would take minimal time for a website right?
As per above description

3) with reference to the dual control instead of 1 person being in charge of the data, i think in hindsight alot of the 9 are probably wishing that they had heard your advice 1 year ago......
Hindsight is always pretty accurate LOL.

 

[jarance]

Based on what I observed even on this forum, not all data can be recovered 100% when there is a migration from 1 platform to another platform.
I have seen many old topics are displayed incorrectly in this forum especially the postings are "multi-quote". You can only view it properly when you are "threaded mode".

 

[popeadrian]

Based on what I observed even on this forum, not all data can be recovered 100% when there is a migration from 1 platform to another platform.
I have seen many old topics are displayed incorrectly in this especially the postings are "multi-quote". You can only view it properly when you are linear mode.

What if the same platform is used? Would this make a vast difference? Am just wondering if, lets say, its the same platform then there shouldnt be a huge issue of using the backup initially and subsequently taking the website "offline" whilst "updating" the files, right? If its a different platform, then Murphy's Law would apply hence not achieving 100% recovery.... :smokin:

 

[jarance]

Pop, sorry I cannot say. I think python would be a better person to comment
about it.

My comment is solely based on my personal observation in this forum..

 

[sithwarrior]

This is all greek to me

 

[popeadrian]

This is all greek to me

Yeah... well if the Greeks made beer thats sold in M'sia i'm sure you'll understand it perfectly! :rock: :smokin:

 

[retrosurfer]

Personal view

my personal comments - we do a lot of backup on our servers on a daily basis as it's just a must to do to ensure that the data is safe and in the worst case scenario, we have the replicated data for recovery purposes.

What will be do with the backups when we finished the backups? - backing up databases or data is important but the most important part is the integrity of the data. We can save, backup, replicate, redundant data, yada yada yada but if the INTEGRITY of the data never being tested, DONT EVEN BOTHER to waste the time doing it. :top:

So due to ensuring the integrity of the data is 100% bullet proof (in our business we just need to make sure it is 100% bullet proof), we do test it from time to time by dumping the replicated/saved/backup data into a backup production server and check the integrity of the data - each important data are checked thoroughly.

We did stop a replication process last year (provided by one of biggest antivirus software in the world) and told them to take their process with them as it do us no good. We pay the money monthly for the service but when the time that we need to use it it's not working... :stupid:

But then again, this is how we run our business daily and also the process in making sure that we do have the redundancy process implemented. If other webhost does not practice this (normally they will need to as this is their business) , that i wouldn't know..

Damn.. i guess i am partial Geek...:rock:

 

[python_dev]

At the moment I am just guessing at the setup, jarance is right on what he says for platform changes also.
If they were the same platform, and same setup it is possible if a correct backup with server configuration info was included..
but this would also affect things like server login passwords and other things..
Best advice is to get as much data (webpages, database info) as possible and re-create the site. and expect that it may not be 100% the same as before...

 

[XXX]

This is all greek to me

more like Geeks to me..hehhehe..sorry off topic.

 

[python_dev]

I'm the original geek
google search python_dev

 

[NKTOB]

So the million dollar question.

If a web company has done handover, any file damage or site crash after date of handover, is the web developer still held accountable? Isnt handover equivalent to discharge of duties?

 

[Q8Q8]

So the million dollar question.

If a web company has done handover, any file damage or site crash after date of handover, is the web developer still held accountable? Isnt handover equivalent to discharge of duties?

How do you define handover is done ? Hand over with CD or just download. As a web developer it should be done in proper to give then the CD with all the relevent info/datA and get the the guys to sign acknowledge. Your job is done !

Web hosting have back up everyday, if the site crash use the back up la.
WHAT A QUESTION ?
:stupid:

 

[NKTOB]

How do you define handover is done ? Hand over with CD or just download. As a web developer it should be done in proper to give then the CD with all the relevent info/datA and get the the guys to sign acknowledge. Your job is done !

Web hosting have back up everyday, if the site crash use the back up la.
WHAT A QUESTION ?
:stupid:

Harlo.... handover as in release of ID and password to control panel. Handover as in old admin oledi been replace by new admin.

 

[Q8Q8]

Harlo.... handover as in release of ID and password to control panel. Handover as in old admin oledi been replace by new admin.

The Q is did those felo download the data and tell you yes we have downloaded ? and have they sign you a letter say yes we have done ? If not they still can say you have not given them what they pay for right ? :stupid:

 

[NKTOB]

The Q is did those felo download the data and tell you yes we have downloaded ? and have they sign you a letter say yes we have done ? If not they still can say you have not given them what they pay for right ? :stupid:

Alor...no need to give one ar..Sudah "chao yau yee" some more must serve in a silver platter meh :stupid:

Anyway...those felo have more than a "week" time to do lar....Some more acknowledged receipt of the user ID & Password...

Told those felo many times on the expiry of the last server...better cepat buat, but terlambat...what to do, now shoot at old webmaster lor, best those felo do now...

Anyway, look on the bright side...now bmwcm many ppl log-in liao :top:

 

[python_dev]

Responsibility is on all parties to ensure accurate data is stored, having a single source for data is never good for the web developer...
Minumum 2 sets of data should have been kept by 2 people. so all problems should not be put on hosting provider to do backups, but they should for integrity of server, not individual clients (Thats why client control panel has option to do site backups also).