Klasse vs Zaino. Which is "better"????

[plutoII]

This debate continues to rage in many foreign-based detailing forums. Both are excellent products, and both have their respective followers. I thought it might be interesting if I can post my opinions from a Msian perspective, since our climate is so different. These opinions are based on more than 8years usage and experimentation of both products and are 100% unrelated to any foreign forums+websites comments and advertising talks. These are my opinions, and I am sure many Z and K users may hv different opinions. My intention is to share mine with others, and not to challenge any users, discredit or praise any brands. SUITABILITYZ and K performs optimally on:1. Any new OEM paint that's swirl free.2. Any professionally-sprayed aftermarket paint jobs that's free from any blurness or other defects. If you hv swirls, all kinds of stains, watermarks, blurness due to lousy re-spray job etc etc, Z and K cannot help you. SURFACE PREPZ and K cannot correct serious defects. Z and K magnify any swirls. Z and K should be used, and performs optimally on well-compound surfaces that are 100% defect free. Look at the Z cars posted on the websites...all of them are enthusiast vehicles with good paint that's well prepped. If surface is sanded and compounded first, and you use Z and K, the results are marvelous. GLOSSZ and K will not change your colour in any way unlike waxes that often darken the colour slightly,leading to adjectives such as "richen, deepen, warmer, radiance, glow etc". Z and K actually increase the perceived brightness/reflectiveness of your clearcoat, making you say it's glossy. The look is similar to having a layer of clear plastic skin on your paintwork. Some say it's akin to a 2nd clearcoat. Zaino has a slight edge in terms of clarity. The brightness looks clearer, more wateryJust imagine a 100% clear plastic wrap vs 90% clear plastic wrap. To many people, Klasse is already impressive, but upon very close scrutiny and side-by-side comparison, Zaino has that slight edge. DURABILITYIMO, Z and K shd not be assessed via water-beads. The Klasse and Zaino look lasts about 3mths. Cars were parked outside in the day, indoors at night, and washed twice a week. No quick-detailers usedOf course, this is also due to the excellent surface prep of the paintfinish. WATER-BEADINGFor enthusiasts who love water beads:Klasse: Dissappointing. Beads will weaken after 2nd week. It will start sheeting water. Zaino: Very small beads for 3-4 weeks. After that, looks like everything is gone. Looks is still there. APPLICATIONZaino:Once you start Z, you'll be stuck to the Z system since you can't mix with other brands. Other spoos contain wax, which hinders the layering process that is critical to Z's results. Using Z takes a lot of knowledge, reading and considerable time-management before doing the 1st time.People who don't understand often mis-use Z and complain. Klasse:Klasse AIO is very easy to use. Klasse HGSG could be difficult if you don't know how. Once you've learnt the trick...wallaaaa!!!Some foreign application methods, reported to be effective, may cause problems. Every Klasse HGSG user might hv their own style. I hv mine too! SUMMARY:Zaino:Truly excellent product if you hv a well-compounded, optimal paint finish paint that's 100% swirl free. On Msian cars, sadly, lots of surface prep must be done (including maybe sanding!!) before you can reach this stage. To be layerable, your car must be washed at least 3 times a week so that it's clean enough to accept further layers. If it's stained and rough, layering is impossible. The Zaino life is for the dedicated, hardcore enthusiast who understands the system, and who can spend time to do layering. If you want the ultimate wetlook and don't mind the amount of work involved (surface prep + 1st application), this is for you. Klasse:Truly excellent product if you hv a well-compounded, optimal paint finish paint that's 100% swirl free. On Msian cars, sadly, lots of surface prep must be done (including maybe sanding!!) before you can reach this stage. To be layerable, your car must be washed at least 3 times a week so that it's clean enough to accept further layers. If it's stained and rough, layering is impossible. Especially effective on silver and light coloured cars, and the result is very, very close to Zaino. These 2 brands are not something any ah kao can just buy and blindly apply to their aged cars.Lots of prep work needed to enable these 2 brands to show off their optimum prowess. Note: The above are my summarised opinions, without going into much technical details.

 

[maxxsp]

I have to disagree with some of the comments you have made. Some of which are technically wrong.

Firstly any wax/ sealant applied to a surface with scratches will 'fill' the swirls.
Zaino Z5-Pro contains fillers which 'fills' the swirls even more so technically there is no reason why the swirls should be magnified. There is no need for the surface to be swirl free to use Zaino or Klasse as long as the paintwork is not contaminated.

The only time LSPs dont 'work' is when the paintwork is contaminated badly or oxidised and the LSP cannot bond to the paintwork. Defects from bad paintjobs such as fisheyes or a cloudy clearcoat do NOT hinder its effectiveness at protecting the paint.

Zaino Z5-Pro does give the paint slightly more warmth due to its filling properties. Zaino Z2-Pro has better clarity since it does not contain fillers.

Beading shows whether there is still a propective layer of LSP on the paintwork. Flat large beads usually show that the LSP is wearing off. Just because it still 'looks' like its still there doesn't mean there is adequate protection. Sealants usually sheet water and this is better used to assess whether it is wearing off.

Wetsanding is NOT a neccesary step. All it does is remove orange peel to 'flatten' the surface. Having orange peel does not hinder a LSP's ability to bond and protect the surface. I don't know whether you recommend wetsanding because you own a detailing business but that is a different matter. I would not trust anyone to wetsand my car as a slight slip-up can end up being a very costly respray.

It is fine to layer other waxes over Zaino, the only problem is using other waxes in between layers. Zaino is far from being for the 'hardcore' enthusiast. there are plenty of other products that are more 'hardcore'

 

[plutoII]

I have to disagree with some of the comments you have made. Some of which are technically wrong.

Firstly any wax/ sealant applied to a surface with scratches will 'fill' the swirls.
Zaino Z5-Pro contains fillers which 'fills' the swirls even more so technically there is no reason why the swirls should be magnified. There is no need for the surface to be swirl free to use Zaino or Klasse as long as the paintwork is not contaminated.

The only time LSPs dont 'work' is when the paintwork is contaminated badly or oxidised and the LSP cannot bond to the paintwork. Defects from bad paintjobs such as fisheyes or a cloudy clearcoat do NOT hinder its effectiveness at protecting the paint.

Zaino Z5-Pro does give the paint slightly more warmth due to its filling properties. Zaino Z2-Pro has better clarity since it does not contain fillers.

Beading shows whether there is still a propective layer of LSP on the paintwork. Flat large beads usually show that the LSP is wearing off. Just because it still 'looks' like its still there doesn't mean there is adequate protection. Sealants usually sheet water and this is better used to assess whether it is wearing off.

Wetsanding is NOT a neccesary step. All it does is remove orange peel to 'flatten' the surface. Having orange peel does not hinder a LSP's ability to bond and protect the surface. I don't know whether you recommend wetsanding because you own a detailing business but that is a different matter. I would not trust anyone to wetsand my car as a slight slip-up can end up being a very costly respray.

It is fine to layer other waxes over Zaino, the only problem is using other waxes in between layers. Zaino is far from being for the 'hardcore' enthusiast. there are plenty of other products that are more 'hardcore'

Maxx, thanks for your input.

Klasse HGSG and Zaino Z2Pro cannot fill swirls.
I did not refer to Z5 in my post.
IMO, Z5 is not very effective in filling swirls (even though it claims it can), and in my post above, I was referring to Z2Pro. The added brightness imparted to the clearcoat makes any swirls even more obvious.

It is logical and common sense to ensure the paint shd be in optimal condition (absence of swirls and other problems) before using these products. This will help produce optimal results. I know anyone can just blindly slather on Zaino or Klasse on any average paintwork...but I am talking about a proper, professional approach that gives optimal results.

Before you apply extensive makeup to a model, wouldn't you want to ensure her skin is free from serious problems first? I think that's very logical. As the popular saying goes.....surface prep contributes the most to any detailing efforts. It's all in the prep.

Before spending time and money to apply all these products, and hoping for good results, it is logical and simple common sense to ensure the surface is as optimal as possible.

Any form of sanding is certainly not a mandatory thing...on your car.....or on cars with good paint finishes.
I also did not say that orange peel can affect bonding.
Many customers are brain-washed by all the wetsanding vidoes and education touted by mftrs, and start hunting for orange peel. That's where, if they insist the orange peel "has to go", sanding will be necessary. I don't think anyone enjoys sanding, and I certainly don't recommend it. However, if absolutely necessary, properly done, and then properly compounded, and applied with the correct cosmetics, the results are very impressive. The customer is king.

In the detailing line, I face all kinds of cars with shitty paintwork that require extensive correction.
It's not everyday I get enthusiasts cars with fantastic paintwork. In certain cases, sanding is necessary to produce results that'll impress the customer...especially those who've learned about orange peel.

It's surprising how many owners who don't know much about detailing, started to talk to me about orange peel and requesting for sanding on their cars (wow!!!)....and not even knowing the cost and time involved cos the websites never mentioned it!!!

To me, I will not trust to layer just ANY wax over Zaino as I believe it affects durability.
Over the years, I hv tried topping Zaino Z2/Z2Pro with Megs 26, Megs 16, Soft 99 pure waxes, Swissvax Concorso, Collinite etc. I hv tried a few brands that did not give much problems.
Also, once you wax on top of Zaino, you can no longer layer Zaino anymore.

 

[maxxsp]

I agree that prep is 99% of the result. What I meant was although it is recommended, it is not absolutely neccesary to have the paint 100% swirl free.

My opinion is on a daily driver, having flat paint is not neccesarily a good thing as it is hard to maintain. My brother's E34 has very flat paint (good paintjob) and accumulates stone chips easily and also shows defects more prominently.

I have tried a couple of waxes over Zaino with good results such as Swisswax Onyx and P21S.

 

[KrisMas]

How to judge 'better'?

For a show car it would be the looks.

For a DD it would be durability and resistance to the climate and all things that goes with it, including bird droppings, tree saps, water marks and etchings, etc.

Comparing just the two, Klasse and Zaino, in my inexperienced eyes, Zaino have the edge on both, regardless whether layered or not.

Just my humble opinion.

 

[KrisMas]

Oh yeah...need to add another thing.

Another edge that Zaino has over Klasse would be it's ease of application and buffing off, i.e. more user friendly. Putting the Zaino a tad thicker then required won't cause much of a problem (though there is some) but with Klasse, it would be a PITA to remove.

Only downside I find with Zaino is the initial cost of getting them and it's availability in the local market.

Another of my 2 sen worth of opinion.

 

[plutoII]

I agree that prep is 99% of the result. What I meant was although it is recommended, it is not absolutely neccesary to have the paint 100% swirl free.

My opinion is on a daily driver, having flat paint is not neccesarily a good thing as it is hard to maintain. My brother's E34 has very flat paint (good paintjob) and accumulates stone chips easily and also shows defects more prominently.

I have tried a couple of waxes over Zaino with good results such as Swisswax Onyx and P21S.

Totally agree with you, Maxxsp.
The concept of "100% swirl free" was propagated by mftrs, and embraced by many enthusiasts.
I agree with you that it's not necessary to hv a flat paint totally free from orange peel. It's not easy to maintain a car like that. Even my own car has some micro fine scratches, and I just live with it.
Practicality is important, and this is what I preach to customers.

Unfortunately, on the pro detailing side, not everyone shares this belief.
Many hv been brainwashed by the swirl free and OP-free concept, and demands it.
No orange peel, no swirls!!! Sigh!
Anything less is unacceptable to them. Even worse, if this kind of result is not achieved, the detailer will be seen to be sub-standard.

There was such a customer today who insisted on levelling the orange peel (sanding) on his Merc, and 100%swirl free results. I told him this was not practical but he insisted. Gave him what he insisted....and he paid BIIGG time for it!! i hv done my job, and wonder how he'll maintain it in this condition

 

[AlexNg]

my input: u gotta have strong hands and strong willpower when u over apply KSG. u need to be Hercules + Incredible Hulk to remove the hard layer. but then, after couple of months, KSG still rocks.. really..

 

[KrisMas]

Question for maxxsp and plutoII.

Both of you seemed to be in agreement that a flat, 100% swirl free and OP free are more difficult to maintain. May I know your logic/views why is this so as compared to 100% swirl free but not so flat with OP paintwork? What's the difference between the two that makes the former harder to maintain?

Thanks in advance.

 

[plutoII]

Question for maxxsp and plutoII.

Both of you seemed to be in agreement that a flat, 100% swirl free and OP free are more difficult to maintain. May I know your logic/views why is this so as compared to 100% swirl free but not so flat with OP paintwork? What's the difference between the two that makes the former harder to maintain?

Thanks in advance.

Kris, apologies for the late reply as I've been exceptionally busy during the pre-raya rush.

A 100% swirl-free surface will only remain so if the owner knows how to wash and maintain the car professionally. However, regardless of careful you are, car wash scratches are bound to happen. It will be an extremely slow and gradual process, but after some time, you'll still see fine scratches...especially on dark finishes.

IMO, the underlying layers of clearcoat are softer than the top.
On any extensively sanded and compounded horizontal surfaces, I find that they are more sensitive to birdshit stains, tree sap stains and other problems. Hv seen these on customer's cars that were extensively sanded by another detailer. Despite regular care, there were lots of problems. Even worse, on such a thinned-out clearcoat, it's very risky to do anymore compounding.

Example 1:
2 identical Wajas parked next to each other under the same spot daily (at the office) under a tree.
1st car has been compounded and detailed by me.
2nd car has been sanded before by another PJ detailer, and then detailed by me.
Matrix Micro Coating was used on both cars and both were washed 2 times a week.

After 2mths, 2nd car's bonnet was full of ingrained stains from tree sap and birdshit stains.
Other unsanded horizontal panels (roof and boot) were OK.

The 1st car's stains washed off easily and left no ingrained marks.


Example 2:
Owner of a black Accord asked for polish and wax, and was charged RM2000 for sanding, compounding etc by a detailer in Cheras. Looks great....zero OP. Many detailing newbies will be thrilled. Wow!! Just what they learn from websites!
Car was washed everywhere in town, and owner came to me for swirl-mark removal. I rejected him.
Then, it was used as a wedding car. Ribbons flailing in the wind caused deep scratches, and again, I rejected him when he asked for rectification. 2 weeks ago, car was re-sprayed silver. Lesson learnt.





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[KrisMas]

But does sanding really removes more clear than heavy compounding? Did a test the other day and my PTG readings shows otherwise. I'd need to do a proper test later and do some writeup.

 

[maxxsp]

But does sanding really removes more clear than heavy compounding? Did a test the other day and my PTG readings shows otherwise. I'd need to do a proper test later and do some writeup.

Yes, sanding does remove much more clear than a high-cut polish.
The cheaper PTG's are not always accurate, don't trust the reading on one 100%
Panels that have been repaired also can give false readings due to Filler underneath the paint so be careful.

 

[KrisMas]

This would be an interesting experiment....and maxx, don't worry about the PTG...I think it's quite reliable...