V-Power - Hmmmm.....

[B33mEr]

^^^ wow excellent post very informative ... thanks :top:

 

[Gerald 5]

Thank you wc9922 & turbology, it is such an excellent info for many. I am no techko but would like to know 1 thing for sure.
Should I use V-Power assuming cost is never a factor?? Thanks
M54B30
M40B18

 

[wc9922]

Thank you wc9922 & turbology, it is such an excellent info for many. I am no techko but would like to know 1 thing for sure.
Should I use V-Power assuming cost is never a factor?? Thanks
M54B30
M40B18

Gerald,

I think you will find your 530i will respond to V-power better due to it's ECU's capabilities to adapt to fuel quality. But you got to let the DME adapt to it first maybe after 20-30 mins of driving as it will adjust your short term fuel trim and timing. Vise versa when u go from V-power to the normal grade fuel. Clearing adaptation values would enable the dme to relearn your trim values faster.

For those guys driving big cc performance cars like a Porsche/Ferrari/AMG/Brabus/M or with force induction, they can tell the diff cause the power difference is significantlynoticable on their rides if they change the fuel grade due to the way the engine is designed from the start.

 

[Schwepps]

Gasoline specs are very complex/secret also as the composition (% by volume) of gasoline are consist of many HC compounds such as oxygenates, paraffins, reformate, isomerates, aromatics, olefins and benzenes.These does not includes the additives. U change something u change the RON and MON as well as other thinngs like vapor pressure etc.

Thanks for the informative post wc. :top: What you said matches what an oil company exec told me at a dinner once: not all fuels are the same, because the formulations differ among the brands, and grades within a brand. And that's even before considering the additives. BTW, are you an oil exec?

I'm not one to fall for marketing blurb such as 'detergent' or 'friction reducing' properties, and branding associations such as F1 and Ferrari. I do my own comparisons and for the past 10+ years, km and lit stats of every full tank for each car go into an Excel program in my PDA. So my FC records are very accurate and long term. I can say definitively that FC with V-Power is better by 5-10% compared with Super in all my cars. I never use Regular, so no comparison with that.

Regarding torque and willingness to rev, I hear what you say about performance cars. But my own findings are that I can't feel a difference in my above 180hp lux cars, but I can definitely feel a difference in my Myvi and previous Pajero. In a small cc car or heavy 4WD, small changes in hp can be felt easily. Any comments about this wc?

 

[wc9922]

Bro Schwepps,

I am not an oil exec but I do provide services to them as part of my job.

Euro4 diesel? We can't produce it for the time being unless the plants undergo revamping, which I hope they would be so I have more work ..Ha ha....

I think what u felt is the torque increase, the cars willingness to go when u apply the throttle change. Yes it's subjective, some engines respond very well to fuel grades while some others feel benign, no feel.

It's also have to do with the gearing of the vechicle, the intake design, cam profile,configuration, piston squish area etc etc. and what not. Complicated stuff....

In all hosesty, V-power was created to fill the void in the fuels sector where there is a small demand for a ' premium gasoline' for the use of ultra high performance vechicles. That's why it's not available throughout the whole country right now. The current demand does not justify each station to allocate one tank for v-power only.

V-power based gasoline is not stocked in large quantities so sometimes runouts do happen.If you can check the volume/tonnage of Regular and Super vs Vpower sold at the pumps, u will be surprised at the ratio. I can't recall, but there's not a big market for V-power. What is does however is give you an option..........at the pumps.

 

[infinityKL]

i had a hard time looking for Vpower in Ipoh... very few... infact i only spotted 2... sigh

 

[Schwepps]

Thanks wc. I know V-Power is mainly a marketing niche play, and that's why I had to prove it for myself that it was tangibly better in some way. :wink: The reason I choose V-Power is more to do with being oil conservation conscious than cost-saving through better FC. And the reason I choose Shell in general is for quality. At least I know who is refining it and transporting it to the pumps. I even choose my pumps with care and avoid old pump stations in low-lying/flood prone areas.

Since you supply refineries, maybe you can shed some light on the refining dynamics here. The Shell we get is from Shell PD and Bukom. Does Shell also off-take from Petronas Melaka 1 & 11 via the pipeline? I know that Esso is mainly in production activities here, so who refines for Esso, Mobil, Caltex, BHP, etc? How many refineries are there in Malaysia now? Give us a low-down on their relative quality standards (in an oblique way if necessary ) As fuels are not all the same, neither are refineries I'm sure. :wink:

 

[B33mEr]

Excellent thread this is :top: .... bro schwepps looking back at you history of FC that you have recorded thus far... can you say the extra 0.45sen/l is worth the extra spendin due to the extra km's you have gain by using v-power???

 

[turbology]

I think you will find your 530i will respond to V-power better due to it's ECU's capabilities to adapt to fuel quality.

How ECU adapt to fuel quality ?
ECU can adjust your timing map according to you fuel by detect knock value recorded by knock sensor. Most ECU (or DME) recheck/re-read the data everytime you start the car.
Octane rating has nothing to do with fuel quality. As you said, Octane rating is merely a value for knock resistance.

Higher octance rating doesn't mean better fuel economy too.
E85 has as high as Octane Rating (R+M)/2 of 105, but you get 30% less mileage compare to regular gas.

 

[Schwepps]

Excellent thread this is :top: .... bro schwepps looking back at you history of FC that you have recorded thus far... can you say the extra 0.45sen/l is worth the extra spendin due to the extra km's you have gain by using v-power???

No, it isn't bro! But as I said, I don't look at it purely from the point of view of the extra kms. It's a consumer decision, just like choosing a 3-series instead of a Camry is not based on cost-benefit, but on other emotional factors:

The extra km gives me the feeling that I'm contributing to oil conservation (which may not actually be true) There's an element of kiasuness as it's definitely a premium grade that our refineries are not geared to produce. There's a bit of belief that the 'detergent' additives are better, so that also gives a 'feel good'. And because I can feel a power difference in the Myvi and 4WD, although I can't feel it in the E90, it must be there too! It's a combination of these feel goods, but what I know for sure is that it's not because of the branding connection to F1 and Ferrari, which is just marketing BS to me.

 

[ess530i]

I dont' see how V-power being "the best" since Octane rating is the same.

For 0.45 more, I will just mix myself

paint remover?

 

[turbology]

paint remover?

Laugh out loud

 

[wc9922]

How ECU adapt to fuel quality ?

By checking the AFR target values for each rpm bin that is under closed loop control and adjusting the fuel trim constant for the effective fuel map area so it scales up or down the fuel trim, like a fudge factor. Open loop ecus cannot do this.The VE will be the same for the same (rpm,load) bin but the computed required fuel per injection cycle (ms) will be less. The injector pulse width (ms) will be smaller. Don't mistake this for duty cycle.

ECU can adjust your timing map according to you fuel by detect knock value recorded by knock sensor.

ECU will retard timing when knock sensor gives out knock signal. But under normal operations, it will try and advance the ignition up and reduce the fuel trim for the map cells that fall under close loop operation. The limit will be when knock is detected. Usually it backs off by a safe margin of 5 degrees or so. but depens on the tuner. A BMW will not be the same as a Subaru.

Secondly, the ECU will also back off the timing when the intake air temperature and/or coolant tempreature hits certain limit. This high temps indicate to the ECU the engine is running under severe operating conditions. One example, The M series engine ECU's will not allow the engine to rev above a certain rpm before the engine warms up to preserve the engine. The rev limiter is set by retarding the timing to very little advance so u cant rev past it. That's how rev limiters are set in ECU's, cut out the timing, too risky to cut out the fuel injectors.

So the ecu can adjust timing not just based on knock sensor only.

Most ECU (or DME) recheck/re-read the data everytime you start the car.
What specific data are you referring to?

[Octane rating has nothing to do with fuel quality. As you said, Octane rating is merely a value for knock resistance.
So you argree with me? Fuel quality encompass more means the mixture %'s , the energy value (heat energy released during combustion) of the mix is important too.

Higher octance rating doesn't mean better fuel economy too.
So you saying it's only a measure of the anti-knock characteristics? Partly true.

If I have acess to a fuel that has a higher knock trash hold, won't I as a tuner take advantage of this positive attributes and bump up the timing and reduce the fuelling VE values of the ignition/fuel map in the cruise load areas so the car produces great lean torque on light throttle positions and be able to run AFR's between 15 ~16.5 without fearing the exhaust valves getting burned or the piston melting. That's what every tuner is trying to get, great power and great economy which is a possible combination by tuning.

E85 has as high as Octane Rating (R+M)/2 of 105, but you get 30% less mileage compare to regular gas.
Is E85 refering to Ethanol ? Ifyou are referring to Ethanol, it's a biofuel, almost a pure component fuel compared to gasoline which is a mixture of up to 13-15 organic compounds. By the way, gasoline has a higher heating energy value than ethanol per mol.

So during combustion, you need more ethanol by mass to produce the same amount of energy or heat compared to gasoline. This is a fact. That is why the fuel economy sucks on ethanol grade fuel.

Thanks for refreshing my thermodynamics.

 

[wc9922]

Since you supply refineries, maybe you can shed some light on the refining dynamics here. The Shell we get is from Shell PD and Bukom. Does Shell also off-take from Petronas Melaka 1 & 11 via the pipeline? I know that Esso is mainly in production activities here, so who refines for Esso, Mobil, Caltex, BHP, etc? How many refineries are there in Malaysia now? Give us a low-down on their relative quality standards (in an oblique way if necessary ) As fuels are not all the same, neither are refineries I'm sure. :wink:

Bro, I don't supply them, I have contributed for the design and construction of most of these.

PSR-1 is a sweet crude refinery mainly processing the local crude while PSR-2 is geared toward processing sour crude like Arabian or Iranian crude which has high sulfur content. The PSR does export the finish products overseas via the refinery marine jetty. Shell PD refinery is quite old compared to PSR but it has a upgrading in 1998 with a good LRCC unit. Esso PD refiney is very old school design and is not capable of upgrading without spending a lot of $$$. I don't know if they want to sell it. The rest get their fuel from singapore refineries. Conoco used to originate from PSR as they are/was? a share holder of PSR-2 with Petronas.

The gasoline and diesel in Klang valley is distributed from the KVDT near putrajaya. There are dedicated pipelines than pump the finished products from the PD and Melaka refineries. I am not sure if V-power is transported via this pipeline.

If you ask me about the differences of the various grades of the different companies, I cannot say here.

All I can say for the UL92 and UL97 base fuels, they are comparable interchangable for all the companies, only the additives will be different. I know the oil companies do take from one another temporarily if they have a short fall of fuel but this normally happends in more rural distribution centers like Sibu, Sandakan...etc.

Some companies the additive technology is better than the other maybe because they have a big budget for fuels development, racing or have a great R&D team so some are leaders and some are not.

 

[Schwepps]

Well, we can't argue with you as you're obviously a chemical engineer Thanks for the education you're giving us. And I know you can't say because the dynamics of the oil industry are pretty confidential Correct me where I'm wrong as I'm only a layman:

PSR-1 (Melaka 1) is a wholly owned Petronas refinery, and the sweet crude you refer to is Tapis crude. PSR-2 is a Conoco, Statoil JV with Petronas and produces mainly petroleum coke from Middle Eastern sour crude for export.

There is rarely cradle to grave supply of petroleum, and the upstream and downstream activities of the oil industry in a particular country depend heavily on economics and politics. In Malaysia, Esso focuses on production, Shell on refining and retailing, the others on retailing only, and Petronas on all three. There are others in refining here such as Conoco, Elf and Qatar, but they're not in retailing (no licence)

Last Qs:
- What crude does Shell PD use?
- Do Klang valley Esso, Mobil, Caltex and BHP get their base fuel supply from KVDT, ie piped up from Shell PD and Petronas Melaka 1, or do they get it from other new refineries, or trucked from Singapore?

BTW, I believe V-Power is trucked from Singapore.

 

[wc9922]

I think it's already lari topic lah bro..... V-power only.......

 

[Schwepps]

Hahaha! Spoken like a true oil man...

For a consumer to make an informed decision, it's important to know the chain. Otherwise do we all go to bed thinking that petrols are not all created equal, or do we go to bed thinking that all of them sell KVDT fuel from Petronas and Shell, with a few squirts of their 'secret' additives?

I know you can't say. Thanks anyway for taking us part way there wc.

 

[ess530i]

i've tried every fuel in Msia and BHP is the one which i felt the most significant difference (about 20%) from other fuel...even more significant than v-power...but the other way round! one of the shittiest fuel ever...it is on par with thailand's cheap 'gasohol' (petrol + ethanol)

 

[turbology]

How ECU adapt to fuel quality ?

By checking the AFR target values for each rpm bin that is under closed loop control and adjusting the fuel trim constant for the effective fuel map area so it scales up or down the fuel trim, like a fudge factor. Open loop ecus cannot do this.The VE will be the same for the same (rpm,load) bin but the computed required fuel per injection cycle (ms) will be less. The injector pulse width (ms) will be smaller. Don't mistake this for duty cycle.

Since you can't answer my question directly, and repeating what I already known and point out unrelevant fact, let's pin it down to more specific.

You said V-power is a "higher quality" fuel. Because of what?
(Don't give me VE, AFR, closed loop, duty cycle, injectors pulse excuse)

I agree that MON make a different in performance.
V-power can have higher MON, which make it better "performance fuel".
But, since we can't get any number for MON, we cannot call v-power a "better fuel"

My point is, if any gasoline octang rating is the same, performance wise, any gasoline is the relative the same.
But the the question is, should we pay for the $0.45 different in v-power, which merely the same ??
Some says, V-power give better FC.
Compare $2.45 to $2.00, is 22% more.
Does V-power give you a 22% better FC ?

If I want a better formance from gasoline, I will find something else higher in RON , rather than the "same-RON97-but-no-prove-is-better" v-power.

And Shell claimed "99% of v-power is the same you found in F1". Oh please... all fuel is 99% the same. That is why all of them is call G-a-s-o-l-i-n-e

Cheers

 

[wc9922]

Since you can't answer my question directly, and repeating what I already known and point out unrelevant fact, let's pin it down to more specific.

You said V-power is a "higher quality" fuel. Because of what?
(Don't give me VE, AFR, closed loop, duty cycle, injectors pulse excuse)

I agree that MON make a different in performance.
V-power can have higher MON, which make it better "performance fuel".
But, since we can't get any number for MON, we cannot call v-power a "better fuel"

My point is, if any gasoline octang rating is the same, performance wise, any gasoline is the relative the same.
But the the question is, should we pay for the $0.45 different in v-power, which merely the same ??
Some says, V-power give better FC.
Compare $2.45 to $2.00, is 22% more.
Does V-power give you a 22% better FC ?

If I want a better formance from gasoline, I will find something else higher in RON , rather than the "same-RON97-but-no-prove-is-better" v-power.

And Shell claimed "99% of v-power is the same you found in F1". Oh please... all fuel is 99% the same. That is why all of them is call G-a-s-o-l-i-n-e

Cheers

I sum it up, you are right. U know the most practical answers to everything.:top: