I have a confession to make..

[danc]

Yeah a big percentage of it is due to an initial understeer, which then caused the driver to panic and slam the brakes, that will induce a secondary oversteer and in some cases the car will fish tail.

Irrespective of whether it is a FWD or RWD vehicle, if one enters a corner too fast, the car will understeer!! So fast forgot what you've learn ah?? Time for refresher course!!!!:wink:

Cheers

Definitely have not forgotten sifu Wong. Now I remember where I heard it not not read it. It was from you. :top: Yes I completely agree with that. It;s usually the initial understeer that causes more accidents regardless of RWD or FWD. So any discounts for refresher course:wink:?

 

[ALBundy]

well to be frank...it does...its better to think of it in a positive light though if u wanna take the performance aspect...it may make a normal driver worse...but it will really allow a good driver to shine...people always think in terms of safety when u mention driver aids...but the fact is...the developments of these technologies started on the racetrack. So what does that tell u?...It simply means that it was meant to increase performance and speed....so basically a good driver will already be able to push a car to the limits of its natural handling....the driver aids will help him go that much quicker!

so in my opinion, to really enjoy an ultimate driving machine and all it has to offer, one might consider developing some ultimate driving skills first...best way to go is start out with an older car like an e30 or sth...if ur good with that, chances are u'd be pretty unstoppable in an e90!

Jon, as you have correctly pointed out, traction control/driver aids were initially developed on the race track, just like ABS (when it was initially outlawed from racing, but engineers came out with an indigenous solution, using a pendulum in the brake lines, that's another story) and to me, I would rather put it this way, Traction Control does not make one drives faster, but it acts as a Safety Net.

The idea is to drive as fast as possible without triggering DSC/DTC, when DSC/DTC is triggered, it means you are losing control of the vehicle.

Look at the fastest laps in different circuits with and without Traction Control (in F1 year 2007-with traction control and 2008-without traction control). Of course, the cars in 2008 were slightly more developed but more restrictions to the engine and gearbox (longetivity and etc), so it balances out.

Cheers

 

[jon3171]

Jon, as you have correctly pointed out, traction control/driver aids were initially developed on the race track, just like ABS (when it was initially outlawed from racing, but engineers came out with an indigenous solution, using a pendulum in the brake lines, that's another story) and to me, I would rather put it this way, Traction Control does not make one drives faster, but it acts as a Safety Net.

The idea is to drive as fast as possible without triggering DSC/DTC, when DSC/DTC is triggered, it means you are losing control of the vehicle.

Look at the fastest laps in different circuits with and without Traction Control (in F1 year 2007-with traction control and 2008-without traction control). Of course, the cars in 2008 were slightly more developed but more restrictions to the engine and gearbox (longetivity and etc), so it balances out.

Cheers

well said...but i suppose having a safety net might have a certain psychological impact on the driver, thus giving him the confidence to push that little bit harder..this in turn might result in quicker laptimes provided he does not lose control of the car...still i totally agree with ur point, the quickest laps will come from driving as fast as possible whilst not triggering the dsc!

 

[astroboy]

Yes.. the "safety net" is actually allowing the drivers to know where the limit is, at different situations, wet, dry, tyre condition, etc.

Over time, the same driver may have lost touch with the "oversteer catch" techniques because hardly use it with the "safety net" in place. Placing the same driver in a car without the "safety net", can be a recipe for disaster.. that's the problem with getting used to "safety net".

With an inexperience driver that has never practice/use the "oversteer catch" techniques, don't ever leave home without the "safety net"..

Catching a skidding car in the dry at not very high speed in a wide open road is fun, and we get to practice our "catching".. but in the wet, the limited traction makes "catching" a lot more difficult and unforgiving.. so I swear I won't off my DSC... in the wet :wink:

 

[Schwepps]

The problem with safety nets is that the driver can become careless with the limits. I may be wrong, but relying 100% on DSC to save you in the wet may also be a recipe for disaster.

 

[astroboy]

The problem with safety nets is that the driver can become careless with the limits. I may be wrong, but relying 100% on DSC to save you in the wet may also be a recipe for disaster.

Precisely! That was what went wrong the other day when I expect the "safety net" to kick in but to my surprise, its OFF!!!

 

[jon3171]

i really wouldnt make such a big deal out of it...i have dsc on my e46....and for the longest time i thought when i press the dsc button it means "activate dsc"....so i was actually "deactivating my dsc each time in bad rainy conditions...but personally i didnt feel much of a difference either way....i mean its great to have dsc and all but really it's got little to do with good driving....for me i dont really know the names of techniques such as oversteer catch and what not but its all about just being alert, having quick reflexes and a good dose of common sense...as always the most important thing of all is to be used to the car b4 u push it as u need to know how it will react in the event u lose control

 

[astroboy]

i really wouldnt make such a big deal out of it...i have dsc on my e46....and for the longest time i thought when i press the dsc button it means "activate dsc"....so i was actually "deactivating my dsc each time in bad rainy conditions...but personally i didnt feel much of a difference either way....i mean its great to have dsc and all but really it's got little to do with good driving....for me i dont really know the names of techniques such as oversteer catch and what not but its all about just being alert, having quick reflexes and a good dose of common sense...as always the most important thing of all is to be used to the car b4 u push it as u need to know how it will react in the event u lose control

This thread is created for discussion, mingling, with the intention to share my experience of forgetting to switch on DSC and intentionally pushed the car over its traction limit hoping to experience the electronic interception offered by BMW technology, which almost cost me the car .. :stupid:

No big deal really, just hoping to save some lives for people as forgetful as me.. (being forget to activate DSC)

Good driving is to follow the speed limit and don't push over your traction limit.. of course by doing so, they can hardly trigger the DSC, so with or without DSC, no difference, like airbag.. no issue, no risk, no excitement, no need skill, boring..

Being alert is really important but the right seating position can help u to be more alert in detecting oversteer, so there really are some techniques involved and BMW don't change u RM1,700 just to teach you common sense.

Everyone would think they have good reflexes and good common sense but not me.. I'm just a dumb driver that has slow reflexes, but trying to improve.. everyday on public road for the past 20 years.. .. so that I can be as good as you guys..

.. its a chicken and egg situation when u say to be "used to the car before u push" because if u don't push, how to get use to it? I might be wrong.. to me getting used to 20kph is very different from 200kph..

Anyway, cheers! Good feedback from all.

 

[ebby37]

This thread is created for discussion, mingling, with the intention to share my experience of forgetting to switch on DSC and intentionally pushed the car over its traction limit hoping to experience the electronic interception offered by BMW technology, which almost cost me the car .. :stupid:

No big deal really, just hoping to save some lives for people as forgetful as me.. (being forget to activate DSC)

Good driving is to follow the speed limit and don't push over your traction limit.. of course by doing so, they can hardly trigger the DSC, so with or without DSC, no difference, like airbag.. no issue, no risk, no excitement, no need skill, boring..

Being alert is really important but the right seating position can help u to be more alert in detecting oversteer, so there really are some techniques involved and BMW don't change u RM1,700 just to teach you common sense.

Everyone would think they have good reflexes and good common sense but not me.. I'm just a dumb driver that has slow reflexes, but trying to improve.. everyday on public road for the past 20 years.. .. so that I can be as good as you guys..

.. its a chicken and egg situation when u say to be "used to the car before u push" because if u don't push, how to get use to it? I might be wrong.. to me getting used to 20kph is very different from 200kph..

Anyway, cheers! Good feedback from all.

well said astroboy. I for one definitely appreciate this thread cos everytime I wanna play with my DSC button now, I remember this thread.
Thank you for sharing

 

[Schwepps]

I beg to differ. IMO DSC is a big deal. It pushes the laws of physics quite a lot further because it acts in ways no human driver can: on individual wheels and in milliseconds. DSC has extended the handling and safety of a wide range of cars. The Porsche 911 would have been consigned to the scrap heap of history if not for DSC and related aids.

DSC and ABS are among the most important tech devs to come along. I've only had DSC kick in a few times in controlled situations, on country roads with little traffic, just to see what the cornering limits of the car are. They're pretty high in the E90, and less high on other cars I've owned. :top:

I've had ABS kick in many times in real emergencies, eg. when idiot drivers/riders go through red lights. It's saved the idiots and the front-end of my cars many a time. If everyone had ABS and knew how to emergency brake with it, we probably wouldn't have so many multiple car pile-ups.

Good to attend advanced driving courses to learn how to use these aids properly. BTW, BMW is offering a whole day session driving real Formula BMW FB02s in Sepang on 30th July, complete with advanced driving training. RM4,500 for non-White Card and RM4,050 for White Card. Tailor-made for hot-doggers like astroboy. :top:

 

[astroboy]

Yah! read about the FB02, it offers a lot more value to me than an equal priced holiday trip to say Korea for a ski trip or Japan for a hot spring bath :stupid:

Those who can afford it, its a rare opportunity too good to be missed! :top:

Back to the DSC topic, seriously the DSC can either be treated as safety device like airbag and ABS, where you hardly and don't plan to use it, but only when emergency....... or driving aid like launch or traction control where its intended to help the driver gain lap time..

I treat it has a bungee rope.. what's the point of keeping the bungee rope when u don't jump the cliff... waiting for accidental fall off a cliff?..

 

[jon3171]

wow i really didnt know oversteer had sth to do with seating position...i usually acknowledge oversteer when the back throws...haha i learnt sth new today!

 

[affan66]

agree on the sitting position. makes a huge difference in driving. i am on week 3 or so driving in the recommended sitting position and have even done long distance driving.

It was painful initially but right now, I have no sore back or any pain driving this way.

The reaction and feel is so much better and today for example, this position again saved me from an getting involved in an accident.

 

[astroboy]

wow i really didnt know oversteer had sth to do with seating position...i usually acknowledge oversteer when the back throws...haha i learnt sth new today!

lol! Oversteer has nothing to do with seating position but the right seating position helps in detecting oversteer situation earlier, thus allowing more time for counter react before its too late.. first thing we learn in advance driving.

2nd most important thing is steering holding position.. learnt this after driven for more than 15 years and was taught by Ian Khong... my common sense suck big time.. :wink: