E36 front comps: kickpanel vs door?

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LCP

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I believe this subject has been discussed to death many times over... but the reason I'm bringing this up is I found out that there are two warring (not, just kidding!) camps on this topic... one is for the kickpanel installation, the other is for the door panel mod to fit a component mid-bass driver... I'm still sitting on the fence on my front comps project... hope I don't fall off accidentally and break my head like Humpty Dumpty, that is why I need advise from all you sifus, mahagurus, yodas, etc. etc... I know the kickpanel mount is good for staging as the difference in distance from driver's ears between left and right speakers are less than when mounted on the doors. But some say the E36 kickpanels simply do not have the enclosure volume needed to produce proper mid-bass low enough (till 70-80Hz at least), they will roll off at 160Hz or so, how true is this? What is the stock unmodded kickpanel enclosure volume like (in cu.ft. or litres I don't mind)? As for the mounting on the door just like majority of the other cars on the road these days... with the availability of time alignment on many head units these days, is the staging still a difficult thing to get right? What is the typical volume of the door cavity? I think it's quite big, 1 cu.ft. maybe? I dropped by Klasse (Jln Pahang, next to Tawakkal) while I was in KL a few days back... the boss (Kho) is very very accomodating, he is a proponent of door mounting for the E36, showed me photos of Affan's E36. Spent over an hour talking to me... a very enlightening lecture I must say...
 
LCP, if you wanna fabricate for door panel, check out this fabrication....at
www.bmwsociety.com go to gallery for E36 and search for HONG #774 AC Schnitzer. Best door panel i even seen!!!.
 
LCP said:
I believe this subject has been discussed to death many times over... but the reason I'm bringing this up is I found out that there are two warring (not, just kidding!) camps on this topic... one is for the kickpanel installation, the other is for the door panel mod to fit a component mid-bass driver... I'm still sitting on the fence on my front comps project... hope I don't fall off accidentally and break my head like Humpty Dumpty, that is why I need advise from all you sifus, mahagurus, yodas, etc. etc...

I know the kickpanel mount is good for staging as the difference in distance from driver's ears between left and right speakers are less than when mounted on the doors.

But some say the E36 kickpanels simply do not have the enclosure volume needed to produce proper mid-bass low enough (till 70-80Hz at least), they will roll off at 160Hz or so, how true is this? What is the stock unmodded kickpanel enclosure volume like (in cu.ft. or litres I don't mind)?

As for the mounting on the door just like majority of the other cars on the road these days... with the availability of time alignment on many head units these days, is the staging still a difficult thing to get right? What is the typical volume of the door cavity? I think it's quite big, 1 cu.ft. maybe?

I dropped by Klasse (Jln Pahang, next to Tawakkal) while I was in KL a few days back... the boss (Kho) is very very accomodating, he is a proponent of door mounting for the E36, showed me photos of Affan's E36. Spent over an hour talking to me... a very enlightening lecture I must say...

saw Affan's E36..the door panel nicely done with 7'inch speaker.
 
BlueMixWhite, yes, that's a nice and simple one... now, how much is it to get a pair of front door interior panels from the chop shop... so I can keep mine just in case I need to unmod it in future...

Affan's was done very nicely too, with matching trim for his leather seats.
 
But the problem of mounting it on the door will cause coherence problems (if you mount the tweeter on the dashboard)??
 
harro.... somebody mentioned my name :D

BTW, I use time alignment.
 
Hi Affan, was the tuning (for staging/imaging) difficult to get right? Very nicely done your door panels...
 
LOL! The age old debate continues! :p

Seriously, both mounting options i.e kicks vs door panels have their own set of pros and cons. Ultimately, I believe that it all boils down to the type of set-up you're aiming for, equipment used and most importantly of all - how well can they/the whole system be tuned.

The stock location MAY seem to have limited cavity space but once you take away the original trim and replace it with a purpose built pair of kicks, the mounting options are almost limitless. In fact, I recall seeing/hearing a set-up with a pair of DLS prototype 8 inch mids on kicks at the stock location with matching 3 inch DLS midrange and tweets on the A pillars with excellent SQ properties.

LCP, do remember that the required enclosure volume that people speak of is non relative as these can be factored in at the point of kicks fabrication. Seriously, if you have a pair of midbass unit with about 2.75-3.5 inch mounting depth - a simple pair of solid kicks will be able to handle the mid bass reproduction IMO. Where did they get the roll off theory at 160Hz ? Is this something that they are able to back-up with data or simple "I think so" ramblings ?;)

P/S - the stock location is only able to fit a 5.25 inch midbass unit and has an approx. mounting cavity of less than 2 1/2 inch or so.

In fact, even with current DLS UR6 mids in my car ( known for their so-so midbass properties ), I must say that I'm content with the current midbass level and would rather spend more time working on other elements such as imaging, staging, channel separation plus the overall system integration. Honestly, one can only have so much mid bass upfront - as they say, DO NOT MISTAKE THE SUBBASS FROM YOUR MIDS FOR MIDBASS! :eek: IMO, a normal 6 inch midbass unit is only effective to about 80 plus Hz and a sub is essential for anything lower than that. Unless of course if you're refering to those high XMAX midbass drivers ( but with limited top end entension ) that are more suited for dedicated mid bass duties in a 3 way system.

Of course, on another note I'm looking at swapping the UR6s soon with a pair of SEAS L18 RNX mids ( 8 ohms with a 3 3/4 inch mounting depth) and add a pair of SEAS 3 inch dome midrange for a proper 3 way system. Needless to say, a new pair of kicks with a bit more mounting depth and space - my installer thinks that this is very much possible so we'll see how it goes. The E36 door structure too does not allow such large mounting depth so you can be assured that the door cavity will not yield a swept volume of 1 cft ..... in fact, it should be less than half of that.

As for the door panel mounting, the best install I've heard todate of such a project belongs to the Resident ICE Meister here, Affan - you should try to hook up with that guy and hear it for yourself. A lot of work and tuning hours have gone into it and it sounds just superb. Honestly, the rest of similar installs that I have heard of in E36s are just so-so or even plain pathetic. Proof that even the best gears and equipment can be screwed by poor install and even poorer tuning skills.

Happy hunting!
 
still not there yet la. thinking about a new HU from Pioneer to squeeze that extra umpphs. The thing is I think my ears cannot take it anymore.

Mr. Khoo still thinks he can tune a little bit more.

LCP, there were several tuning options available thanks to the wonderful speakers (Etons). Different options gave different emotions. I had to settle for one or I end up sleeping in the car at the shop and kena ban by wife from returning home also :p

The tuning is not dead dash center but leaning towards the driver when the TA is on Front + Right. On the door panel, you get more possibilities compared to kick panels because you can dump a bigger mid and reduce dependency on using the sub.

My setup is quite simple. 1 5 channel amp. A channel each for the tweeter, a channel each for the 7" mids and one channel for the sub. Amp connected to the HU with DTA + EQ.
 
affan66 said:
still not there yet la. thinking about a new HU from Pioneer to squeeze that extra umpphs. The thing is I think my ears cannot take it anymore.

Thinking of a new HU? You know who to call lah if you wanna get rid of your old one.:D
 
BlueMixWhite said:
LCP, if you wanna fabricate for door panel, check out this fabrication....at
www.bmwsociety.com go to gallery for E36 and search for HONG #774 AC Schnitzer. Best door panel i even seen!!!.

wow, BlueMixWhite, didn't know thailand have many things to offer... is it in bangkok!

and anyway, LCP, use to pasang my punch sub at the shop. quite reasonable.
 
Affan, get the top-of-the-line Pioneer DEH-P90 HU + processor, super stim!!!!!
 
guru Van, how much kick panel cavity volume do you reckon on your setup? If not mistaken, you did mention about having to relocate the bonnet lever, right? Is that a lot of work and material (cable, etc) change involved? What about the space for the right foot when pressing the throttle, is it compromised? Can still do heel-toe?

Sorry for the many questions, but I need to have plenty of info before diving in...

On the 160Hz roll-off, I came across this on some US-based forums, apparently they did use some test tones. But, it was definitely on 5.25" stock kickpanels, but non-stock 5.25" speakers.

Assuming the stock kickpanel cavity dimension you gave is correct, that will give a volume of 0.04 cu ft only, assumption is a cylindrical shape with 6" diameter with 2.5 inch depth. That is definitely not enough.

My hunt will go on...

Anyway, many thanks to you, Affan and the rest of the ICE gurus here on your insights and tips...
 
Hi LCP,

Yeah, finding the rite speaker that appeals to you is quite a journey - just ask the likes of Affan, M30Revival, WJ and the rest here. But when you do and it's set up the right way, you'll know that all that hassle was worth it.

Okay, to answer some of your questions to the best I can - I'm hardly a Guru really .... still learning as much as you are too! ** Bear with the long winded response ... :p **

- how much kick panel cavity volume do you reckon on your setup? From the look of it and what my installer says, it's approx. 25% more space than the original panel and cover at the front stock location. At this moment, I can pretty much swap the UR6 with any other midbass unit with a mounting depth of up to 3 inch. Sadly, my upcoming SEAS babies needs more than that!

- relocation was quite simple as it was just a relocation of the original lever position to further infront. IMO, the whole thing was probably moved by just an inch or so. I'll try to find out more from my installer if any cables or other hardware was involved - none from what I recall really.

- footwell clearance was hardly compromised. If you look at the original pics that I'd posted in one of your earlier threads, there's hardly any obstructions to the throttle pedal and if you're driving a stick shift, heel-toe moves can still be executed swiftly.

On the note of the speaker test that you mentioned below, I'm just curious as to their testing methods and drivers used to verify their findings. Usually, the smaller drivers like a 5.25 inch mid will play much higher than say, a 7 inch midbass unit. This allows the tweeters to stay at a higher crossover point when paired with 5.25 mids as opposed when they are paired with 7 inch mids. However, the trade off as always would be in terms of low end extension where the bigger driver will usually have the edge.

So, if the 5.25 inch mid that you're refering to rolls-off at 160Hz, my guess is that it could be a narrow band driver which is probably more suitable for dedicated light bass duties - meaning that it would still need a pair of mid range and tweeters to complete the front stage. I've even seen 6 inch drivers that have an effective frequency range of approx. 45-160Hz which kinda limits their application in a 2-way system but works great in a 3 way system. The cone construction too is equally as pivotal in determining the rolloff and cone break-up points as each material ( paper, poly, fibre, metal, kevlar ) have their own properties and acoustic characteristics.

Regardless of what speakers you go for, its important that you take other factors such as set-up type (active or passive), instalation method and crossover points. Do remember that our in car seating position and door speaker location typically yields a 60-80 degree off axis performance which means further compromises are required. So assuming that you do go for the active route, you'll need to start paying attention to the crossover points of both your mids and tweets for optimum results. The general idea is that you should keep your drivers within the frequency response that yields as much of it's off-axis ability as possible.

As for the door pods / kick panel cavity, what exactly are your plans ? Are you planning to install larger drivers ( than the usual 6+ inchers ) or concerned about the breathing space for the drivers in the said mounting location ? Do remember that unlike subs, midbass units are usually much more efficient and enclosure space concerns are secondary to mounting/ install angles & positioning. But all things said and done, I always believe that scientific data, graphs and findings are helpful and essentially provides us with a clear and objective analysis of the subject at hand.

As Grissom of CSI says, "Scientific data doesn't lie, it doesn't take sides, or care about the outcome...it's just data!" Ultimately, all this is still SUBJECTIVE as analysis and graphs really don't tell you how something will perform once it's in your car, but it helps greatly because we are trying to achieve the flattest response possible from our listening position, which is the challenge of car audio.

Regards,
VaN.
 
Hi Van,

Many thanks on taking a great effort to respond... Yes, I'm learning more about ICE bit by bit every day... not much details on the web forum that I came across where that guy complained about the rolloff at 160Hz... and it was one of those "surf and forget" websites, lost the URL already.

I still haven't make up my mind yet on whether to go for door pod or kick panel mounting. If I go for the door, it will definitely be a 6.5". If kick panel, I'm still thinking whether to mod it to mount a 6.5".

As my Alpine CDA-9833 is capable of running as a 3-way active setup, suddenly this idea came to me... junk my Infinity Kappa Perfect 10.1D sub, get a pair of large excursion (Xmax) 5.25" sub and mount them in the stock rearfills location, run this pair off my monoblock as a punchy sub.

Then the mids and highs are powered as active setup...

Well, on the facts, especially the Thiele-Small parameters, many manufacturers furnish them for a good reason, but some don't give them for components. Concur with you that the numbers are to be taken seriously.
 
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