E36 Aircond Gas Conversion from HCFC R134a to Hydro Carbon 134a

[HaqimRashid]

Hi Guys,Wanted to share my experience last week on converting my air-conditioning refrigerant from HCFC R134a based to an eco-friendly Hydro Carbon based HCR 134a.Did the conversion at APD (Automotive Performance Developement) in Glenmarie. Started off with DYNO test on my 325i, m50tub25, gm4 gb. No retrofitting. Plug and Play style.Results: 145.2 hp on wheel - Aircond off (Average of 15 runs)131.9 hp on wheel - Aircond on (Average of 15 runs)Afterwards, proceed to check and making sure all AC system are performing. Lucky enough, all good. So, plugged in the recovery machine and recovered all the harmful to environment HCFC gas from the car.. Results: 820g HCFC recovered. Optimum as recommended on BMW AC system 1000g +/- 25g.Scaled up the gas canister, and filled up 384g of HCR 134a. Ratio of HCR to HCFC is 1g HCR : 2.6g HCFC. Upon completing, did runs on the dyno again to see performance.Results:133.9 hp on wheels - Aircond on (Average of 15 runs) - Highest single run was 138.6 hp on wheels with Aircond on.Overall on average 2hp increment.Gas performs great. notice slight improvement in fuel savings in town driving (same route daily). AC much cooler. Air to fuel ratio also improve from the dyno test. Much leaner now than rich.. The HC gas cools faster than HCFC so compressor cuts-off faster than before and the loading much lesser for compressor. Now i'm monitoring the fuel savings to see the actual performance.I was told that the new Lambos, Ferraris, Porsches and most new conti models in Europe are now running on this gas..Total cost i kena: FOC. On the house. Cause doing some consultancy for them.

 

[wingzee]

Nice sharing bro. Did you check with them how much would it cost to convert for our UDMs? Is the HCR gas commonly available at most shops (if we need a top up later in the future)?

 

[HaqimRashid]

Nice sharing bro. Did you check with them how much would it cost to convert for our UDMs? Is the HCR gas commonly available at most shops (if we need a top up later in the future)?

Hi Bro, this gas is relatively new in the market. Only 4 companies with master rights from producers bringing it in. They are one of it. The HCFC gas is slowly being phased out. My Initial calculation shows that cost increament for workshops operators goes up between rm7 - rm 28 per filling from empty gas to full in the system. As of current, most workshop charge between RM80 - RM120 for gas replacement. Can't say how much workshop will charge, but i reckon it will be around Rm120 - Rm180.. Subject to their greediness level..

A few workshop has indicated interest. Hopefully we get to see more of this in the market soon. Know any workshop that might be interested?

 

[wingzee]

Hi Bro, this gas is relatively new in the market. Only 4 companies with master rights from producers bringing it in. They are one of it. The HCFC gas is slowly being phased out. My Initial calculation shows that cost increament for workshops operators goes up between rm7 - rm 28 per filling from empty gas to full in the system. As of current, most workshop charge between RM80 - RM120 for gas replacement. Can't say how much workshop will charge, but i reckon it will be around Rm120 - Rm180.. Subject to their greediness level..

A few workshop has indicated interest. Hopefully we get to see more of this in the market soon. Know any workshop that might be interested?

I assume this gas is mostly used on high-end contis only at the moment? Most conti workshops will be interested judging from the trend that HCR is slowly replaching HCFC.

 

[HaqimRashid]

I assume this gas is mostly used on high-end contis only at the moment? Most conti workshops will be interested judging from the trend that HCR is slowly replaching HCFC.

Fair assumption bro. FYI, Philippines Govt. subsidized some of the HCR conversion cost via carbon credit funds as an encouragement for its citizens to covert to the gas. Hope to see something similar happen here..

 

[Tom328]

Wait, a bit confused here. How does air-cond gas affect hp, fuel consumption, air fuel ratio etc.???

 

[Volvos525i]

Wah looks very interesting...
If this new gas improved the cooling system why not give it a try...

 

[HaqimRashid]

Wait, a bit confused here. How does air-cond gas affect hp, fuel consumption, air fuel ratio etc.???

From my understanding from the explanation i get (am not an engineer nor have technical training) It's the gas composition and properties bro. HC gas have more mass but lesser matter than HCFC. HC gas cools more rapid than HCFC. HC gas is isopropane and isobutane based + catalyst (which allows binding of molecules given both gases have different freezing points). Ratio 1g of HC = 2.6g of HCFC.

Theoritically, if the cooling system requires 1000g of HCFC now it only needs 384g of HC. (1000g/2.6g) Therefore lesser gas also relates to lesser load on the compressor. Less load = less work = less stress = less energy usage to perform the work. (Similar like in the office)

Compressor is pulled by the belt and pulley which is drive by the engine crank. Less work for compressor = less work for engine (have extra HP) = lesser energy usage (fuel consumption & petrol) when performing the same work pulling the compressor.

When aircond is on, and compressor kicks in, engine needs more energy to maintain the same amount of power output. To adjust and compensate for the powerloss, ECU will adjust the air-fuel ratio. Energy comes from fuel, so ECU send signal making adjustment to pump in more fuel, hence richer fuel mix of air- fuel ratio. Since now lesser energy is needed, ECU sends signal making adjustment to pump in less fuel. Leaner fuel mix of air-fuel (Improvement in Air-Ratio)

Because HC gas cools more rapidly than HCFC gas, the time interval between compressor kicking in and out reduces. (inside the car, varience should be around 1 celsius.) if the temp setting is set to max cold (16 c) a raise by 1 celcius will trigger the compressor to kick in. And when it cools down again to 16 celsius or less, it will the trigger the compressor to kick off.

As a general knowledge and rule of thumb, a conti ac system at the ac louvers (blower) should be able to cool to 10c on nominal setting (lowest fan setting). 10c on louvers = 5c at cooling coil. If 5c at louvers = 0c at cooling coil which is not good at all..

Just trying my best to explain. Hope it helps. Thanks.

 

[UnoS]

so bro... what is your new fc?

 

[Volvos525i]

From my understanding from the explanation i get (am not an engineer nor have technical training) It's the gas composition and properties bro. HC gas have more mass but lesser matter than HCFC. HC gas cools more rapid than HCFC. HC gas is isopropane and isobutane based + catalyst (which allows binding of molecules given both gases have different freezing points). Ratio 1g of HC = 2.6g of HCFC.

Theoritically, if the cooling system requires 1000g of HCFC now it only needs 384g of HC. (1000g/2.6g) Therefore lesser gas also relates to lesser load on the compressor. Less load = less work = less stress = less energy usage to perform the work. (Similar like in the office)

Compressor is pulled by the belt and pulley which is drive by the engine crank. Less work for compressor = less work for engine (have extra HP) = lesser energy usage (fuel consumption & petrol) when performing the same work pulling the compressor.

When aircond is on, and compressor kicks in, engine needs more energy to maintain the same amount of power output. To adjust and compensate for the powerloss, ECU will adjust the air-fuel ratio. Energy comes from fuel, so ECU send signal making adjustment to pump in more fuel, hence richer fuel mix of air- fuel ratio. Since now lesser energy is needed, ECU sends signal making adjustment to pump in less fuel. Leaner fuel mix of air-fuel (Improvement in Air-Ratio)

Because HC gas cools more rapidly than HCFC gas, the time interval between compressor kicking in and out reduces. (inside the car, varience should be around 1 celsius.) if the temp setting is set to max cold (16 c) a raise by 1 celcius will trigger the compressor to kick in. And when it cools down again to 16 celsius or less, it will the trigger the compressor to kick off.

As a general knowledge and rule of thumb, a conti ac system at the ac louvers (blower) should be able to cool to 10c on nominal setting (lowest fan setting). 10c on louvers = 5c at cooling coil. If 5c at louvers = 0c at cooling coil which is not good at all..

Just trying my best to explain. Hope it helps. Thanks.

Yes bro thumps up with the explanation given...
I'm thinking of converting to HC gas too...:top:

 

[Tom328]

From my understanding from the explanation i get (am not an engineer nor have technical training) It's the gas composition and properties bro. HC gas have more mass but lesser matter than HCFC. HC gas cools more rapid than HCFC. HC gas is isopropane and isobutane based + catalyst (which allows binding of molecules given both gases have different freezing points). Ratio 1g of HC = 2.6g of HCFC.

Theoritically, if the cooling system requires 1000g of HCFC now it only needs 384g of HC. (1000g/2.6g) Therefore lesser gas also relates to lesser load on the compressor. Less load = less work = less stress = less energy usage to perform the work. (Similar like in the office)

Compressor is pulled by the belt and pulley which is drive by the engine crank. Less work for compressor = less work for engine (have extra HP) = lesser energy usage (fuel consumption & petrol) when performing the same work pulling the compressor.

When aircond is on, and compressor kicks in, engine needs more energy to maintain the same amount of power output. To adjust and compensate for the powerloss, ECU will adjust the air-fuel ratio. Energy comes from fuel, so ECU send signal making adjustment to pump in more fuel, hence richer fuel mix of air- fuel ratio. Since now lesser energy is needed, ECU sends signal making adjustment to pump in less fuel. Leaner fuel mix of air-fuel (Improvement in Air-Ratio)

Because HC gas cools more rapidly than HCFC gas, the time interval between compressor kicking in and out reduces. (inside the car, varience should be around 1 celsius.) if the temp setting is set to max cold (16 c) a raise by 1 celcius will trigger the compressor to kick in. And when it cools down again to 16 celsius or less, it will the trigger the compressor to kick off.

As a general knowledge and rule of thumb, a conti ac system at the ac louvers (blower) should be able to cool to 10c on nominal setting (lowest fan setting). 10c on louvers = 5c at cooling coil. If 5c at louvers = 0c at cooling coil which is not good at all..

Just trying my best to explain. Hope it helps. Thanks.

Superbly explained. Never knew that the type of air-cond gas used could affect the car's performance to such extent. :top:

 

[Volvos525i]

Hi bro...
What is the latest update after converting to this HC 134a...

 

[HaqimRashid]

so bro... what is your new fc?

Abiding the legal speed limit.. Sri Gombak - Duke - NKVE - U2 Shah Alam - Glenmarie - NKVE - Duke - Sri Gombak, if before i fill up Rm30, now i fill up around 25. OBC shows average between 13.6l/100km - 14.0l/100km now vs. previous 14.3 - 15.1l/100km..

Hi bro...
What is the latest update after converting to this HC 134a...

Bro, car still performing great. No problems at all so far..

 

[Volvos525i]

Abiding the legal speed limit.. Sri Gombak - Duke - NKVE - U2 Shah Alam - Glenmarie - NKVE - Duke - Sri Gombak, if before i fill up Rm30, now i fill up around 25. OBC shows average between 13.6l/100km - 14.0l/100km now vs. previous 14.3 - 15.1l/100km..



Bro, car still performing great. No problems at all so far..

Wah that's good bro...
Can't wait to convert my car also hehehe...:top:

 

[Volvos525i]

Bro HaqimRashid...
Any latest update with this HC134a...