What are your thoughts on the parallel imported cars?

[B33mEr]

1. Exactly what i mean to say. The fact is that it is EVEN an option makes one a smart guy for choosing it. Im debating whether or not there should even be the option of parallel imports and hence when there is no option at all, purchasing one thru the official channels is the only way and the only price you will ever come to know. Im not asking you to choose between the two which is quite obvious in its own.

I am debating if parallel importers should be allowed to bring in cars that are already brought in through official channels.

2. Actually having lived most of my life overseas, most of my colleagues, classmates and friends overseas dont really pay attention to our car prices, sad to say. In retrospect, we can all laugh at the employees of Lehman Brothers in US/UK that got laid off due to their impending domestic economic conditions?

Sorry but i feel that certain economies, countries and governmental policies will yield certain results and likewise, certain prices, commodities, newsbits will be either severely controlled, expensive, restricted, call it what you must but a laughing matter, i beg to differ.

LOL ... back in the days in early 94 (UK) during break time told my english friend that a new lexus cost GB100k (GB1 = RM4) he almost choke himself while drinking coffee ... lol trust me mate they're laughing all right

3. You are absolutely correct here as the risk is still definitely very high especially with horror stories of our local dealerships not knowing what to do and trying to refuse warranty claims at any available opportunity.

Good thing is i have a very close friend who is a lawyer and runs his own legal practice and everytime the dealership refuses to warrant a claim for me, i get him to give them a ring and send them a notice that i intend to take up the matter in court so alot of my warranty claims get rectified.

To date, Steering rack and rear differential replaced. These are just the expensive items. Ive even had a windscreen crack and replaced for free before (not insurance glass coverage).

All in all, since BMW cars are "high risk" cars, with the failure rate somewhat high and the cost of rectifying said failures "somewhat high", wouldnt one want to take the necessary steps to ensure that they are protected as much as possible?

Yes its possible to get that from a parallel importer too but sometimes certain corners are cut and some workshops are not too sure what they are doing but they give it a go nonetheless and that just so happens to be the "panel" workshop of said parallel importer.

The best possible protection you can get is a warranty from BMW AG/BMW Malaysia dont you think? As there are service bulletins, specific torque rate for every nut and bolt etc etc and continuous improvements (we can only hope) on their part and on BMW AG's global campaign to improve the image of their vehicles.

So should you opt for such protection, you have suddenly become "not so smart", yearning to be proud for paying a higher price and somewhat foolish?

Maintenance cost and replacement of parts can be reasonably cheap if you look hard enough ... your argument are for warranty and peace of mind is valid tho not so sure about proud for paying a high price car

4. On the contrary, not many people are purists when it comes to the car in itself and buy the car purely on the basis of merits and meritocracy. In fact, most people buy the car for the sort of image it carries.

Just think about Lamp Berger and all the Lamp Berger boys and you can imagine the sort of image they try to give out by means of the vehicle. I am succesful yada yada yada.

Some people buy a BMW/Merc/Any high end car for the purpose of business? Lobbying perhaps?

Would you pass a RM100m contract to a guy that rocked up in a Proton Wira? I would be doubtful.

So essentially, said Mr Businessman bought the car for his image and his business?

High net worth is very subjective as what is high to one may not be high to another unless you use the banks standard definition of "high net worth individual" and even that can differ. And the only way for Mr Businessman to show it then is to carry his personal accounts/asset details on him.

Or he could buy himself a brand spanking new LS460L?

True about the business image but then again you don't see many, if any, chauffeured driven 3 series (maybe 5 series but still a rare sight) having said that having a chauffeur is the appropriate image for any discerning businessman

Essentially the fact of the matter in my opinion is that to compare the prices of cars in Australia vs Malaysia or any country for that matter is largely irrelevant. Ive lived there before and even a 3er is very exclusive. Why?

At 80K AUD, its already alot for Aussies who are used to 10k AUD Commodores. You get Lancer's for 19,999 DRIVE AWAY!

Assuming a ratio of 1:4, a Lancer here costs around RM100k or thereabouts?

A 525i is around 400k? Wouldnt you say its the same then?

Bro that assumption is false ... PPP is much lower than that compare per-capita income of Australia which is $37,300 (2007 est.) and Malaysia $14,500 (2007 est.) we can see that the Aussies are having a much cheaper and easier time buying cars than us.Please see https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/print/my.html

Dont even need to go into the Japanese "shaken" system to understand why vehicles come out so cheap.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shaken

Jap markets have a strict vehicle ownership policies simply bcos they can afford it plus Japan is the only country in the world that are at one time, iirc, are in danger of economic deflation rather than inflation hence the need to get rid of the current car and buy a new one policy lol

So ultimately, every economy in its own should be isolated when it comes to vehicles and the pricing structure due to certain economic policies implemented by the government but when said policies clash, and sometimes in the consumers benefit, ie: low vehicle prices out of japan due to above reasons, and high vehicle prices here due to import duties, there is a sort of "arbitrage" profit of sorts to be made?

Bro ever heard of the term global economy???

But at what expense?

Im actually debating if parallel imported cars should be allowed in at all if the model is sold through official channels. Not about whether or not the car is exclusive, but more the erosion of the market position of any given vehicle buy opening it up to a bigger variety of buyers.
Why would affluent buyers be concerned about the erosion of market position of a vehicle just because more people can afford when they can just buy a more expensive car??? Those that are concerned are not affluent but rather people that is living out of their means by purchasing 400k cars and suddenly found out that an average joe just bought a 5 series for half the price they bought and feel that the investment they just made for having the image of "upper class" and exclusivity not so exclusive anymore lol

My answer in blue

 

[k3nny]

1. Sorry bro. I still cant agree that people are laughing at the prices we pay for our cars. They feel our pain, yes i agree but then again, i doubt they find it anything to laugh about.

2. Im sure its easy to say maintenance and parts are easy and cheap if you look hard enough but saying and finding is a totally different thing right?

Especially when your car is lying in the workshop? I doubt you would find an E60 active steering rack for anything REASONABLE. Dont even start on the gearbox.

3. Hate to say this but chauffeured 5er is quite common. Me is one. I can refer you to another 7 off the top of my head.

I can also refer you to 5 directors of public listed companies, most Dato' and one Tan Sri who drives his own car. Just doesnt like being driven. His bodyguard is in the passenger seat though so i really cant agree with the chauffeur being appropriate for any discerning businessman.

I will however say that i have a driver because i drink very often and have the tendency to "overdo" it impairing my ability to get home sans driver.

4. I would have to agree and disagree with you on that. I did a study on this actually for one of my final year thesis and even when i was working at CIMB, there was a seminar on income disparities that i attended.

Ultimately, to study the per capita income of australians, which basically takes into consideration ALL Australians, is inappropriate. Especially to determine the ability to purchase a vehicle at any given price as that takes into consideration many different variables such as culture, cost of home ownership, availability of financing etc.

All that aside, by studying your per capita income of Australian's, one will come to understand that there are many reasons why it is much higher than that of Malaysians.

1. Currency is very much stronger (assuming the figures you quoted are in USD?)
2. Australia is a very very large country with a 21,468,700 2008 estimated population. Safe to assume many of these people "live off the land" especially in NT and WA. Plenty of land for farming and agricultural produce? Relatively cheap to obtain?

3. Malaysia now already has 27,730,000 as of 2007 and not to mention the income disparity between the rich and the poor is very big? I think ultimately many countries have a lower per capita income ie:china?

Go to Shanghai and see if you see many nice cars. Or tell me and ill send you photos from my recent business trip.

They buy cars with WAY more ease than us malaysians.

5. Yes i have. Funny thing if i havent seeing as im an ex investment banker.

But nonetheless, the laws of the free market and the global economy do not always prevail. Our current credit crunch is one example. The US dollar is another example. Unlimited demand. Manipulation.

Every economy has individual defining characteristics that define it as an individual economy/country on a global level and henceforth our evaluation of said market/economy and to a certain extent, the efficiencies of said economy has to be taken on an individual sense and then on a global sense.

If the economy were truly global and laws of the free market were allowed to prevail, you go tell our government to allow the import of cars DUTYLESS or a set fixed duty of x% for EVERY nation globally. Henceforth vehicles moving from one nation to another cannot enjoy tax setbacks. Only advantages that are specific and unique to that specific market (ie: low mileage, high spec of jap cars) and then ill shut my mouth.

In my view, the economy is not global in an ideal sense. But if you feel otherwise, please feel free to prove me wrong.

6. Lastly, i think you've missed the point and i will repeat again what i posted above.

My intention was to seek opinions on whether or not parallel imports should be allowed in if the cars are already brought in through official channels.

But for argument sake, affluence is once again, something that is very subjective.

You make the assumption that all affluent people are not calculative? That all affluent people look at the depreciation of RM200k as a pshh?

Sad to say people get rich by saving/earning hard and not spending foolishly. Contrary to popular belief if i have to add too.

I can show you a very rich man who has hung onto his W220 S350 because he cant stomach the losses that he will incur selling the car on the second hand market due to the amount of parallel imports for this car available now.

Can you make the assumption that he isnt affluent? I can supply you guaranteed evidence otherwise that he is INDEED VERY affluent although a tad calculative if i must add.

So im sorry if i beg to differ with your opinion that affluent people "dont mind" losing money for nothing and that amount is negligible. I believe even affluent people can be "money smart".

Unless of course they are affluent by means of political connection, governmental assistance yada yada yada that we are all so familiar with and hear so much about. Then maybe the money is as they say "easy come easy go".

Are you aware that Tan Sri Teh Hong Piow (Public Bank) is still holding onto his W220 S320 with plates PBB 3?

Ask him why he doesnt want to change. Or maybe you think he's not affluent enough. Thats why hes riding in a RM150k second hand value S-Class.

If thats the case, i got nothing to say.

I can give you some more examples though if you want?

Anyhow, i hope someone can give me their opinions on WHY/WHY NOT parallel imports should or shouldnt be allowed in if the car is already sold through official channels.

Thanks anyways for all the input. I've learned alot. Really appreciate it

 

[k3nny]

let me say this, i have observed that the really rich still has the exclusivity to drive latest model of any marques for 1-2yrs after first launched whereas the grey importer havent got the chance to bring them in...

so, if exclusivity is important to you, buy it when newly launch and its unlikely the average earners can afford it. my 2 cts

Thats it. The people that can afford it buy it when the car is launched. Parallel importers normally only get them 2 - 3 years later but do you think these people that paid so much to bring it in are now unable to sell it for a reasonably depreciated price?

Because the price as been deflated by cheap parallel imports coming in?

Maybe BMW Malaysia should stop selling cars. Leave the selling to the parallel importers who it seems "smart people" go to and just focus on fixing cars, that they dont even do all that well anyways right?

Just so im clear.

Anyhow, just out of curiousity, besides radio and internal equipment spec, is there any difference in the Japanese Spec/Europe spec E60's as compared to our local ones?

ie: maybe different rubber door seals for our heat? different intake location for our high waters sometimes? missing "snow" flaps behind the kidney grills? stuff like that?

 

[t2ribena]

i am so surprise that some ppl here thinks the 'affluent ppl' like their money eroded or gone just like that due to some policy that is not fair to the industry and the cusumers...

'affluent ppl' in my understandings which covers hard working ppl, that has make it in life will not be what they are today if they don't mind losing money in something that they invested on...the car is also an investment for them as it helps them to earn more in different sense...so in the calculated depreciation of the car if there is no parrallel importers that erodes the value, i think it would be a good investement maybe break even for them...but with the parallel importers the investment maybe, will fast become a liability and i totally do not think that they like it...

 

[k3nny]

t2ribena: Thank you!

Finally someone here agrees that "affluent" people do not throw money away blindly and "feel nothing".

 

[jkortum]

Wow this is a very interesting discussion, I do think there should be something done to the Malaysian car industry. Grey imports are making the purchase of cars cheaper and therefore more affordable for the general Malaysian to purchase a car, this is making the roads safer by having newer vehicles on the road. Imagine if there were no grey imports on Malaysian roads prices would be higher for all used cars and the roads would be full of junk.
Australia was in a similar situation 20 years ago with high import tariffs and a thriving trade in grey imports, the government decided that they were only supporting a lazy local auto industry as they didn’t have to be competitive and all vehicles were terribly overpriced. The import duties are now very low and still reducing, the local manufacturers have now become more competitive and are now world class. The roads are full of newer cars which has had a marked improvement in the safety of the vehicles.
If Malaysia reduced the import duties you would see the industry go in the same direction and all would benefit, the local manufacturers would be forced to improve and the price of all other vehicles would become more affordable which would wipe out the grey import market.

 

[thule]

But our Malaysian govt still protects our very own Proton after so many years... from 1983 until today. They should have realised that they can't protect Proton forever if they want it to be competitive and able to compete in the global market.
Price of a BMW in Malaysia is almost double of other markets... thanks to super high import tariff and duty

 

[affan66]

offtopic.
maybe because tan sri teh busy with "something else" besides cars.. hehehe... if you know what i mean

 

[funfer_fahrer]

1. Exactly what i mean to say. The fact is that it is EVEN an option makes one a smart guy for choosing it. Im debating whether or not there should even be the option of parallel imports and hence when there is no option at all, purchasing one thru the official channels is the only way and the only price you will ever come to know. Im not asking you to choose between the two which is quite obvious in its own.

I am debating if parallel importers should be allowed to bring in cars that are already brought in through official channels.

There's nothing wrong with parallel imports actually. Yes, they should be allowed to bring more options to the people. Their cars are actually recond cars and their pricing is actually cheaper than but slightly more expensive than second hand cars. So, it has their own target market. They don't compete head on with new BMWs. Even if there is some sort of competition it is indeed a healthy one. So, when the price of new BMW drops tremendously after a few years, it has nothing to do with recond cars flooding the market. What you see is the actual value of the car (even if nobody brings in reond cars). Like I said before, almost half portion of the price of the car are taxes. Those days, they used to print the breakdown amount in the price list but after 1999 most car dealers stopped printing the breakdown of the price. What you see is only "TOTAL NETT SELLING PRICE". I am sure you have lived in Perth long enough to see the "Your One Day Has Arrived" carnival organised by BMW Australia. From there you can see that the price of a five-year-old 5 series is almost equivalent to the price of a five-year-old 5 series here in Malaysia even after currency conversion. That was the actual value. In Malaysia the import duty for new cars is so high as such that the second value is extremely terrible. Again, this is not because of recond cars.

2. Actually having lived most of my life overseas, most of my colleagues, classmates and friends overseas dont really pay attention to our car prices, sad to say. In retrospect, we can all laugh at the employees of Lehman Brothers in US/UK that got laid off due to their impending domestic economic conditions?

Sorry but i feel that certain economies, countries and governmental policies will yield certain results and likewise, certain prices, commodities, newsbits will be either severely controlled, expensive, restricted, call it what you must but a laughing matter, i beg to differ.

What actually happened to Lehman Brothers is actually a one-off incident. Many employees suffered. But, hey, as a car enthusiast I have to face the ridiculous price of the BMW almost every day. Worst still, there are still people supporting this.

3. You are absolutely correct here as the risk is still definitely very high especially with horror stories of our local dealerships not knowing what to do and trying to refuse warranty claims at any available opportunity.

Good thing is i have a very close friend who is a lawyer and runs his own legal practice and everytime the dealership refuses to warrant a claim for me, i get him to give them a ring and send them a notice that i intend to take up the matter in court so alot of my warranty claims get rectified.

To date, Steering rack and rear differential replaced. These are just the expensive items. Ive even had a windscreen crack and replaced for free before (not insurance glass coverage).

All in all, since BMW cars are "high risk" cars, with the failure rate somewhat high and the cost of rectifying said failures "somewhat high", wouldnt one want to take the necessary steps to ensure that they are protected as much as possible?

Yes its possible to get that from a parallel importer too but sometimes certain corners are cut and some workshops are not too sure what they are doing but they give it a go nonetheless and that just so happens to be the "panel" workshop of said parallel importer.

The best possible protection you can get is a warranty from BMW AG/BMW Malaysia dont you think? As there are service bulletins, specific torque rate for every nut and bolt etc etc and continuous improvements (we can only hope) on their part and on BMW AG's global campaign to improve the image of their vehicles.

So should you opt for such protection, you have suddenly become "not so smart", yearning to be proud for paying a higher price and somewhat foolish?

Nowadays, recond car owners can enjoy the same privilege including software updates (except for warranties) as the new BMW buyer at any BMW authorised dealers (Autobavaria included!). Yes siree, they now accept recond cars for sservicing. If one can save RM200K why would he or she opted for a brand new BMW. With that kind of savings, no one is worried if the windscreen is broken or the gear box is faulty. Not to mention the depreciation is also a lot less.

4. On the contrary, not many people are purists when it comes to the car in itself and buy the car purely on the basis of merits and meritocracy. In fact, most people buy the car for the sort of image it carries.

Just think about Lamp Berger and all the Lamp Berger boys and you can imagine the sort of image they try to give out by means of the vehicle. I am succesful yada yada yada.

Some people buy a BMW/Merc/Any high end car for the purpose of business? Lobbying perhaps?

Would you pass a RM100m contract to a guy that rocked up in a Proton Wira? I would be doubtful.

So essentially, said Mr Businessman bought the car for his image and his business?

High net worth is very subjective as what is high to one may not be high to another unless you use the banks standard definition of "high net worth individual" and even that can differ. And the only way for Mr Businessman to show it then is to carry his personal accounts/asset details on him.

Or he could buy himself a brand spanking new LS460L?

Essentially the fact of the matter in my opinion is that to compare the prices of cars in Australia vs Malaysia or any country for that matter is largely irrelevant. Ive lived there before and even a 3er is very exclusive. Why?

At 80K AUD, its already alot for Aussies who are used to 10k AUD Commodores. You get Lancer's for 19,999 DRIVE AWAY!

Assuming a ratio of 1:4, a Lancer here costs around RM100k or thereabouts?

A 525i is around 400k? Wouldnt you say its the same then?

Dont even need to go into the Japanese "shaken" system to understand why vehicles come out so cheap.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shaken

So ultimately, every economy in its own should be isolated when it comes to vehicles and the pricing structure due to certain economic policies implemented by the government but when said policies clash, and sometimes in the consumers benefit, ie: low vehicle prices out of japan due to above reasons, and high vehicle prices here due to import duties, there is a sort of "arbitrage" profit of sorts to be made?

But at what expense?

Im actually debating if parallel imported cars should be allowed in at all if the model is sold through official channels. Not about whether or not the car is exclusive, but more the erosion of the market position of any given vehicle buy opening it up to a bigger variety of buyers.

There's no doubt that the car also carries some intangible parts. Those days it worked brilliantly. Driving a BMW means you are a big time businessman or a millionaire. But, in this information age it works up to a certain extent. People know who you are. There's no need to prove anything. I once had lunch with UBS bank CEO. He commutes to office everyday using the tram and does not even wear a Patek Philippe on his wrist. Such a simple gentleman. Luckily, I didn't mention about the price of the 7 series in Malaysia. Otherwise, he would have died of a heart attack!

P/S: I recommend you read the book "The Millionaire Next Door" by Stanley and Danko.

 

[flash]

hmmmm, you know something we don't? wanna share share:listen::listen:...?

this thread is an interesting read. really got my "noodles" working....:top:

offtopic.
maybe because tan sri teh busy with "something else" besides cars.. hehehe... if you know what i mean

 

[Spaceman]

Thats it. The people that can afford it buy it when the car is launched. Parallel importers normally only get them 2 - 3 years later but do you think these people that paid so much to bring it in are now unable to sell it for a reasonably depreciated price?

Because the price as been deflated by cheap parallel imports coming in?

Maybe BMW Malaysia should stop selling cars. Leave the selling to the parallel importers who it seems "smart people" go to and just focus on fixing cars, that they dont even do all that well anyways right?

Just so im clear.

Anyhow, just out of curiousity, besides radio and internal equipment spec, is there any difference in the Japanese Spec/Europe spec E60's as compared to our local ones?

ie: maybe different rubber door seals for our heat? different intake location for our high waters sometimes? missing "snow" flaps behind the kidney grills? stuff like that?

I am well aware of the pricing differentiation/ structure btw the local and the PI before i put down my money on my ride. To me, its simple to analyse the + & -.

+ being i get local warranties + peace of mind for first few yrs & love the new car smell.

- being the price, depraciation is further pushed down by PI during the mid life cycle of the model. 2nd hand car nitemare, heard too much stories about it....frankly i have no time sending my car to workshop every now and then.

That's why i booked the car in Aug 2005 after it was launched in Apr 2005. But somehow only got the car in Mar the following yr.

I dont know what's the current PI pricing stucture for their cars, i think they (price) are very close to the local 2nd hand market value. say an E60 525i in 2006 local now valued at RM260K? the PI is about the same. So, this PI is creating an option for potential buyers to chose either local or imported 2nd hand. Bear in mind that, those PI cars are of different spec. compared to local built which you wont see "lots of thing" for early models when rolled out.
So, here, the buyer get to choose a local 2nd or PI 2nd hand comparing the specs...since PI would price their cars of the similar capacity to the local 2nd hand price sturcture. End of the day, if the average earners is determined to ride on these 'luxurious' (as in M'sia context) car, its still 2nd hand anyway. and i believe our used car price stucture is always there be it the existence of PI or not.

With all that said, there's only one cause for all these mess - Taxes & Duties!
Everything will be back to 'Normal' as i used to enjoy in UK if these hadnt been adopted in this country and i've been waiting to see some miracles!

 

[k3nny]

Funfer Fahrer:

Dont get me wrong guys. Im not against parallel importers. I just wanted to see what everyones opinion was and since everyone was batting FOR, i might as well try bat AGAINST and see the outcome.

I guess you have a very valid point there. And that is that the parallel imported cars ultimately have their own market position and cars sold through original channels will also have their own market position. Ultimately, power to the consumer is the number one rule of the free market economy. After all, willing buyer willing seller right?

Caveat Emptor.

With Lehman Brothers, ultimately the occurence is a one-off incident due to bad timing, inability to secure a "white knight" and a myriad of other reasons. But what i was trying to get at was that the root of the problem began within their own nation. The US of A. So if Americans were to laugh at our car prices due to taxes which we pay through our noses, which is ultimately a domestic issue, we can laugh at Lehman Brothers for them which is also a domestic issue for them (in some part unless you really want to go into detail on default credit swaps and speculation).

I guess every nation to its own on its policies and laugh if they may, but im pretty happy living in Malaysia paying these taxes (as much as i can afford them), else, Mr Parallel importer will get my business.

So ultimately, yes, the conclusion is that parallel importers do have their own unique market position in this market and their existence does not serve to erode the market position of said car model/brand but rather give the consumer a wider range of choices. Power to the consumer is always a good thing in my humble opinion?

Finally, funny that you should bring it up as i HAVE read The Millionaire Next Door!

So how many of us here are PAW's? (Prodigous Accumulators of Wealth)? hehe.

I think that to a certain extent, people can still be very superficial and at the very bottom of the ladder, even a 200k odd BMW still will command some respect. Whether or not said respect will get you anywhere financially remains to be seen and is impossible to say yay or nay with any certainty but i will admit the possiblity is there, though slim.

Nonetheless, this has been a very very interesting "thread".

Anyone have anything else to chime in? hehe

 

[B33mEr]

1. Sorry bro. I still cant agree that people are laughing at the prices we pay for our cars. They feel our pain, yes i agree but then again, i doubt they find it anything to laugh about.

2. Im sure its easy to say maintenance and parts are easy and cheap if you look hard enough but saying and finding is a totally different thing right?

Especially when your car is lying in the workshop? I doubt you would find an E60 active steering rack for anything REASONABLE. Dont even start on the gearbox.

3. Hate to say this but chauffeured 5er is quite common. Me is one. I can refer you to another 7 off the top of my head.

I can also refer you to 5 directors of public listed companies, most Dato' and one Tan Sri who drives his own car. Just doesnt like being driven. His bodyguard is in the passenger seat though so i really cant agree with the chauffeur being appropriate for any discerning businessman.

wow ... and yet you said earlier regarding about having a 5 series as a status symbol eroded by grey importers since so many "common people" could afford it now but you dismiss the idea of having a chauffeur is a symbol status in it's own right ??? that's contradicting isn't it?

I will however say that i have a driver because i drink very often and have the tendency to "overdo" it impairing my ability to get home sans driver.

So i guess you just have a driver after office hour and during office hour you drive your own car???

4. I would have to agree and disagree with you on that. I did a study on this actually for one of my final year thesis and even when i was working at CIMB, there was a seminar on income disparities that i attended.

Ultimately, to study the per capita income of australians, which basically takes into consideration ALL Australians, is inappropriate. Especially to determine the ability to purchase a vehicle at any given price as that takes into consideration many different variables such as culture, cost of home ownership, availability of financing etc.

All that aside, by studying your per capita income of Australian's, one will come to understand that there are many reasons why it is much higher than that of Malaysians.

1. Currency is very much stronger (assuming the figures you quoted are in USD?)
2. Australia is a very very large country with a 21,468,700 2008 estimated population. Safe to assume many of these people "live off the land" especially in NT and WA. Plenty of land for farming and agricultural produce? Relatively cheap to obtain?

So what is appropriate then ??? the fact remains that australians enjoys a higher income per-capita than us Malaysians plus their car market is an open market w/o much tariffs and taxes compare to ours ... hence that is why it was inappropriate for you to compare Australia with our market in your earlier post remember? plus by going with your argument aboive we shouldn't compare at all with any market thus you just neutralise and kill your own argument in your previous post

3. Malaysia now already has 27,730,000 as of 2007 and not to mention the income disparity between the rich and the poor is very big? I think ultimately many countries have a lower per capita income ie:china?

Go to Shanghai and see if you see many nice cars. Or tell me and ill send you photos from my recent business trip.

They buy cars with WAY more ease than us malaysians.

again wow ... you want to compare Malaysia with China??? Bad move bro China has a population of 1.33 billion of course they have a lower GDP :stupid: China's GDP $5,400 vs Malaysia $14,500 plus according to a news article in 2008 China economics boom has more millionaire's than france so of course they can buy cars with ease lol plus their market is HUGE but we also know that the gap between rich and poor is true and huge unlike in Malaysia where we have one of the largest middle class in the world and that's a fact bro :top: your argument of disparity of income between the rich and poor is poor (no pun intended)

Please article entitled - China has more millionaire's than france
http://www.businessweek.com/globalbiz/blog/eyeonasia/archives/2008/07/china_now_has_m.html

5. Yes i have. Funny thing if i havent seeing as im an ex investment banker.

But nonetheless, the laws of the free market and the global economy do not always prevail. Our current credit crunch is one example. The US dollar is another example. Unlimited demand. Manipulation.

Every economy has individual defining characteristics that define it as an individual economy/country on a global level and henceforth our evaluation of said market/economy and to a certain extent, the efficiencies of said economy has to be taken on an individual sense and then on a global sense.

If the economy were truly global and laws of the free market were allowed to prevail, you go tell our government to allow the import of cars DUTYLESS or a set fixed duty of x% for EVERY nation globally. Henceforth vehicles moving from one nation to another cannot enjoy tax setbacks. Only advantages that are specific and unique to that specific market (ie: low mileage, high spec of jap cars) and then ill shut my mouth.
Errr ... have you ever heard the term comparative advantage??? plus no economy in the world have a free market including the good ol' U.S. of A recent example see the recent bail-out by the US government for Chrysler which amount s to $4 billion dollars when by right they should closed down and let the markets adjust itself accordingly to the free market rules but then again we all know that is not the case :wink: ... plus i never said free economy and duty-less economy what i meant was that global economy is whereby the barriers to trade is of at a minimum due to the use of ICT, free trade agreements, economic caucas, free movement of goods and so on thus the economy is truly global ... see how one market slump i.e US ... affects all other markets in the world

In my view, the economy is not global in an ideal sense. But if you feel otherwise, please feel free to prove me wrong.
I just did

6. Lastly, i think you've missed the point and i will repeat again what i posted above.

My intention was to seek opinions on whether or not parallel imports should be allowed in if the cars are already brought in through official channels.

But for argument sake, affluence is once again, something that is very subjective.

You make the assumption that all affluent people are not calculative? That all affluent people look at the depreciation of RM200k as a pshh?

Sad to say people get rich by saving/earning hard and not spending foolishly. Contrary to popular belief if i have to add too.

Err ... i'm surprised how you could arrive at that sum of depreciation of 200k w/o taking into account of time, markets demands, economic condition and etc ... don't you know that once the car is yours the value could depreciate up to 30% on the 1st year of ownership ??? that is to be expected lah bro. cars are a depreciating assets and affluent people are rich in assets and cash thus they have the capacity to replaced a car at a time in point that suits their fancy it's simple as that plus if these people complain then i guess they're not all affluent lah . the rest of us well we try to make the best we can according to our means and we certainly don't just buy our UDM for status (most people anyways ) it's more of a passion, interest and necessity

I can show you a very rich man who has hung onto his W220 S350 because he cant stomach the losses that he will incur selling the car on the second hand market due to the amount of parallel imports for this car available now.

and i can show you a guy that just bought and E90 for 2 months then sold it off for a E92 (lucky git)
Can you make the assumption that he isnt affluent? I can supply you guaranteed evidence otherwise that he is INDEED VERY affluent although a tad calculative if i must add.

So im sorry if i beg to differ with your opinion that affluent people "dont mind" losing money for nothing and that amount is negligible. I believe even affluent people can be "money smart".

Unless of course they are affluent by means of political connection, governmental assistance yada yada yada that we are all so familiar with and hear so much about. Then maybe the money is as they say "easy come easy go".

Are you aware that Tan Sri Teh Hong Piow (Public Bank) is still holding onto his W220 S320 with plates PBB 3?
thats good for him lah but i'm sure he is also holding on to his helicopter, his condo in HK, his villa in Spain, his yacht in Mauritius and etc etc

Ask him why he doesnt want to change. Or maybe you think he's not affluent enough. Thats why hes riding in a RM150k second hand value S-Class.

If thats the case, i got nothing to say.

I can give you some more examples though if you want?

Anyhow, i hope someone can give me their opinions on WHY/WHY NOT parallel imports should or shouldnt be allowed in if the car is already sold through official channels.

Thanks anyways for all the input. I've learned alot. Really appreciate it

Well bro my answer in blue ... it's been a very good debate and discussion ... so i take my leave cos i have no more constructive opinion to give therefore peace bro :love: :top:

 

[alxy]

I didn't buy a BMW to "snob" others. I bought it because I like the car. I would certainly be happy if the price of cars in Malaysia go down to a level which the rest of the world is paying. Even then, I would still buy the 5 series, but be happier as I would pay less upfront and also lose less in depreciation.

Plus if I wanted to be a snob, then I could always spend the same RM300-400K on a Porsche

 

[t2ribena]

I didn't buy a BMW to "snob" others. I bought it because I like the car. I would certainly be happy if the price of cars in Malaysia go down to a level which the rest of the world is paying. Even then, I would still buy the 5 series, but be happier as I would pay less upfront and also lose less in depreciation.

Plus if I wanted to be a snob, then I could always spend the same RM300-400K on a Porsche

bro totally agreed...the prob nowadays is that many ppl who is 'riding on others fortune' tends to 'show off' and 'snob' others...

 

[k3nny]

1. I dismiss the chauffeur bit as to have one only entails RM800 - RM1000 a month. Very small amount compared to the commitment you make when you buy an E60 or a more expensive car. Henceforth if you can dismiss the E60 as being common and not particularly high status of sorts, then its fair for me to say the chauffeur is even more common and less appealing as it entails a lower financial commitment/burden.

2. Nope. He drives during day time too because i like to nap behind after lunch. They put the window blinds in the back of the E60 for a reason.

3. I think what is appropriate is to be able to compare but also to take every market with its individual pros and cons into consideration. To just pluck the per capita income out and relate it to the cost of car ownership in that said country would be inaccurate or would show an inaccurate picture of the car ownerships and the cars that are on the streets in that said country.

Dont even want to go into culture where asians parents would buy their kids nice cars while most aussies wont even contemplate the idea, rich or not. Borrowing culture? Prevailing lending rate for HP?

Im not saying that a comparison cannot be made. Im saying to simply use the per capita income of said nation and relating it to the cost of car ownership would be inappropriate.

4. I dont think i disputed the fact that China has more millionaires than France or any nation you can quote for that matter. In fact, i never brought it up.

I disputed the fact that a direct comparison between two very different nations would be inaccurate and inappropriate for argument sake.

You confirmed my dispute by subsequently telling me the difference between the Chinese market and the Malaysian market in the same way that i argued that the Australian market and the Malaysian market is very much different and hence a per capita comparison relative to local standards of living and car ownership is not accurate.

5. I have most definitely heard of comparative advantage and as such, how can you then use the per capita income of a nation to relate to its cost of car ownership?

You asked me if ive heard of the global economy or something to that effect. I gave you my views on what the global economy is and if it were to be perfect.

Plus there is nothing there i said that had any relevance to the bailout of chrysler? or AIG? or Fortis? or ANYONe for that matter.

I was merely trying to point out that because the global market is inefficient in its own sense with trade barriers in place, it leaves alot of loopholes open, esp when there are greedy politicians, that will cash in on this and of course these cars come in at a lower tarriff rate or lower taxes.

Of course, power to the consumer with more choices at better prices but that wasnt my argument. Mine was that "arbitrageur" sort of profits can be made in between due to the difference in policies between certain governments and by right, that shouldnt happen and that is not the way the car manufacturers intended it as well.

They control it for a reason.

6. I didnt arrive at the sum RM200k. Im just randomly pulling out a figure from the air. It could be RM2m for all i know. Im just randomly using a figure. I dont have your kind of smarts to figure out the time value of money (TVM) and its relativity to ecomomic condition etc etc.

Sure affluent people can afford it. No doubt. That is why they buy the car in the first place.

But my argument was that they feel the pinch. It feels painful to lose more than an expected amount of money on a car. You argued that its inconsequential. I argued that regardless of their affluence, some "affluent" people will feel the pinch, even if they can indeed afford it.

You then responded by saying if thats the case, they are not really affluent then are they? And i responded by giving you examples.

7. All those and maybe a few women as a part of his "pleasure squad" to make him happy but doesnt change his perception on the value of money and how much he has to lose on the value of his car.


I hope no one misunderstands. Im not trying to be a snob by saying that there shouldnt be parallel imports in the country. Im just trying to see what everyones opinions are and since everyone supported parallel imports in the first few responses, i might as well go against and see how interesting this debate can get.

My first E60 was from Naza in 2004 but at a crazy price. So yes, i do support parallel imports. Since everyone was FOR parallel imports, i might as well go AGAINST in my arguments or this thread would close at page 1.

Now i've been "enlightened" on many things ranging from the car market, global economic situations, economic theories, per capita incomes and more. Stuff i should know as a part of my occupation but somehow it slipped me i suppose?

But thanks to everyone for all their inputs! Really appreciate it. Was a good argument and i hope no hard feelings for any of my comments. Ill put it a quick apology if i offended anyone.

Always nice to know what everyone else thinks so we know if we are still on the fence or already off our rockers.

 

[David Yong]

But my argument was that they feel the pinch. It feels painful to lose more than an expected amount of money on a car. You argued that its inconsequential. I argued that regardless of their affluence, some "affluent" people will feel the pinch, even if they can indeed afford it.

I have to agree with this. And I have also seen many rich people would rather got for pre-reg, reconds or even 2nd hand luxury cars instead of buying new ones. It is not that they can't afford it, it is that they don't see the need to lose so much in depreciation which I am very sure they can afford to lose. These people would rather spend their hard earned money to other areas that can help them to make more money in return :top: