Oil contamination in Radiator expansion tank

[sillycarx]

Hi,My car is e90 2005 with 100k milleage.Found that my car had oil in the radiator. It was actually quite thick and milky brown colour. So there was 2 oil source to check, engine oil and ATF oil. Draining my Engine oil shows that it is clean. Draining my ATF oil also shows that it was clean. So when I think back, my engine oil level was not lower then usual. After traveling for about 6.5k km, it was down by about 25% at least on the display, which is actually quite normal, since the last time it was 1l after about 11k km. My ATF on the other hand, seems to be slightly lower, but not 100% sure, since there was some screw up by AB glenmarie when I got them to change my ATF oil at 98k. Another long story...So, after talking to different people. AB guy in Penang said, he is almost certain that if there is aproblem it is the ATF oil cooler. He said, his experience is that, if the contamination is so great, it will not be 1 way for the engine oil chamber. The AB service manager, also check with a few of his mechanic around, and said on there was only 2 reported cases, and those 2 cases, was 1 way contamination from Radiator to engine oil and not the other way around. The 1st case is engine gasket leak and the other case is engine oil heat exchanger ( cooler) leak. After cleaning out all the oil ( as much as I can) fromt he radiator line and expansion tank, the problem of oil leak doesn't seems to be getting worse. ( after about 400km). So now waiting to see if there is more oil contamination in my radiator.... I am really wondering now what is wrong.

 

[voltan]

Wow, you are threading in dangerous waters. Take immediate concrete and serious action bro.

In early stages of fluid transfer you can't rely on physical appearance of engine lub or ATF. I was told you need to do a proper chemical/glycol test fast. Transmission failure will easily cost you beyond RM20K and associated heart aches.

 

[viewfinder]

If only AB knows how to do the test. At least AB should know some company that does... no?

 

[FIRZ67]

Sillycarx,

As i had replied u in E46 forum, your oil contamination are most probably came from a leaked heat exchanger. My car had this problem before and and after changed the heat exchanger I need to top up the ATF almost 2 litre.Then now go back to normal but still monitoring as there is still some remaining of ATF in my radiator and expansion tank.

 

[voltan]

Sillycarx,

As i had replied u in E46 forum, your oil contamination are most probably came from a leaked heat exchanger. My car had this problem before and and after changed the heat exchanger I need to top up the ATF almost 2 litre.Then now go back to normal but still monitoring as there is still some remaining of ATF in my radiator and expansion tank.

Coolant contamination of an automatic transmission is one of the worst scene scenarios in motoring. At its worst it grinds the car to a standstill and at its best it quietly robs you of performance & fuel economy. Even moderate overhauls in "cheap" independent w'shops are about RM15K.

Selected 2003 Mercedes models had random leaks around abt 80K km in their Valeo supplied (normal is Behr) radiators.

Any idea the manufacturer of your radiator/heat exchanger?

 

[oligokoko]

Hi,

My car is e90 2005 with 100k milleage.

Found that my car had oil in the radiator. It was actually quite thick and milky brown colour. So there was 2 oil source to check, engine oil and ATF oil. Draining my Engine oil shows that it is clean. Draining my ATF oil also shows that it was clean.

So when I think back, my engine oil level was not lower then usual. After traveling for about 6.5k km, it was down by about 25% at least on the display, which is actually quite normal, since the last time it was 1l after about 11k km.

My ATF on the other hand, seems to be slightly lower, but not 100% sure, since there was some screw up by AB glenmarie when I got them to change my ATF oil at 98k. Another long story...

So, after talking to different people. AB guy in Penang said, he is almost certain that if there is aproblem it is the ATF oil cooler. He said, his experience is that, if the contamination is so great, it will not be 1 way for the engine oil chamber. The AB service manager, also check with a few of his mechanic around, and said on there was only 2 reported cases, and those 2 cases, was 1 way contamination from Radiator to engine oil and not the other way around. The 1st case is engine gasket leak and the other case is engine oil heat exchanger ( cooler) leak.

After cleaning out all the oil ( as much as I can) fromt he radiator line and expansion tank, the problem of oil leak doesn't seems to be getting worse. ( after about 400km). So now waiting to see if there is more oil contamination in my radiator.... I am really wondering now what is wrong.

this prob may due to :

a) ATF (transmission line) oil cooler leak
b) Engine oil cooler leak
c) Top gasket leak (may be detected by lost of compression in engine, under powered engine, vibration n misfiring engine)

but from my experience, the oil cooler usually leak. its either at the transmission line ot the engine oil line. the best way is to replace both oil coolers with d new 1. u may need to replace the engine oil cooler gasket as well. water will not enter the oil pan (either engine or transmission) if the leakage is a small 1. oil will usually enter the water lines due to oil is alot "thinner+ lighter" compared to water, so it can gp thru small leaks / openings. before its too late, i suggest u to

1) flush, reflush and do it all over again on the coolant system with a proper flushing detergent (n lots n lots of water) until u r confident that the sys is free / less of oil
2) replace engine oil and transmission oil cooler
3) replace gasket for engine oil cooler
4) just do a normal flushing (water only) and bleed d cooling sys (with coolant mixed)
5) use it for 2 weeks (frequent daily driving recommended, short to medium distance driving, average of 80-100kph vehicle speed) and bring it back to ur trusted SC / wshop
6) if the coolant line is still oily, i suggest to replace the cooling system as well (top n bottom hoses, engine connector, radiator, thermostat n water pump) - this will cost u sum bucks, pls be prepared
7) dun forget to ask the SC / wshop guys to check on engine oil n ATF condition as well

in really3 rare case, it might b a leakage in the power steering pump + water pump as well. encountered this once on a recond car. pls refer to the attachment for better explaination. the water pump is actually driven by power steering pump, which takes the rotational energy from the engine via power steering pump pulley. u can figure things out by looking at the picture. again, this is a very rare case but it does no harm to check whether it is ok or not. anyhow, please give us ur feedback after u have solved this problem.

Happy Troubleshooting !

 

[zam zainal]

Bro,

I think you faced the same problem which i had last month with my bro;s E46 328, the problem seems to be from the leak oil seal ( RM 80!) in the trans cooler heat sink which supposed to cool down the GB temperature.

The headache started when i sent the car to flush the coolant , then i saw the milky thick kinda creamy inside the expansion tank and on the cover.

Checking the error code, none display,..checking the GB oil and the engine oil..all clean! I was lucky when forumers here especially Jarance and one anonymous forumer from Kuantan willingly helping me with a good advise and recomended me a good GB specialist in Batu Caves, Gombak.

Please bring it to your w/shop or GB specialist to check it immediately.

They'll charge only RM 300 just to open up and check your GB (part by part) , and its good to let them do it.

The problem when the cooler oil seal leaks is when the water gets in your GB, even just a nano scale,

1:: its create problem to your solenoid where all the transmission electrical signal were sent to the ECU.

2:: The clutch plate worn , due to clutch plate (kapchai size likes!!!) damages from water contanimation

Dont worry to much since its just a minor and expected bills for this RM 3500-RM 4500 only ( solenoid aka valve body & clutch plate damage-if any).

As for me once i did the so call "overhauling" i put the existing cooler hose to an oil cooler from E36, sandwiched between the radiator. Now the GB temparature reading is +- 100c even during the hot season!

Strangely though , BMW in german is still insisted on this type of cooling method even they knew our weather is unprecedently hot.

PM me or Jarance if you want the w/shop numbers and address.

note: pls see att pix

 

[zam zainal]

Btw before i forget, steps taken:

1: Check & Change the oil seal for GB cooler, RM 80 only.

2: Clean top and bottom hose, expansion tank and radiator, and if the both hose 'kembang'
just buy new one, RM 300 for both hose with sensor

3: Clean up the whole radiator RM 100+-

4: Then do normal driving for +- 50km with careful driving

4: Check again the expansion tank, if there is no oil, then confirmed it is the oil seal that leak

5: Now you have to decide wether you want to retain the previous cooling method
or customised it to E36 GB oil cooler, meaning that there'll be no contact with water for cooling purpose anymore.

E36 GB oil cooler RM 150-200 from kedai potong
New hose line to and fro, RM 200, or you may use steel braided hose RM 200+-

6: If got more budget pls bring it to GB specialist, RM 300 labour charges on installation and dismantle the GB

7: If GB need overhaul expect the price as i stated above.

 

[zam zainal]

If only AB knows how to do the test. At least AB should know some company that does... no?

Yup bro... surprisingly a workshop in Batu Caves can tell much more than AB! I dont know la..maybe
thats make a difference between makan gaji or self employed!

 

[FIRZ67]

Hi Zamzainal,

Just curious how long did the gearbox specialist need to check/diagnose the GB? And if need to change the solenoid or valve body,how long do i need to leave the car there?

 

[zam zainal]

Hi Zamzainal,

Just curious how long did the gearbox specialist need to check/diagnose the GB? And if need to change the solenoid or valve body,how long do i need to leave the car there?

IF they free 2 hours they'll open up the enclosure and barai every nut and bolts..
there u see all the details la..

For overhaul they need at least 3 days for testing & diagnose

How's your car now?

 

[zam zainal]

Coolant contamination of an automatic transmission is one of the worst scene scenarios in motoring. At its worst it grinds the car to a standstill and at its best it quietly robs you of performance & fuel economy. Even moderate overhauls in "cheap" independent w'shops are about RM15K.

Selected 2003 Mercedes models had random leaks around abt 80K km in their Valeo supplied (normal is Behr) radiators.

Any idea the manufacturer of your radiator/heat exchanger?

15K??.. no la bro..

If only u knew that all bimmers clutch plate is a kapchai likes..surely u 'll laugh till u die..
Most of us do not have any in depth technicalities on the GB or the engine..thats why we always
play the guessing game.. and as u know most of the bimmer spare part is almost the same price as
japanese car..or proton wira!!! for that matter.

If only we had the knowledge!!

 

[FIRZ67]

IF they free 2 hours they'll open up the enclosure and barai every nut and bolts..
there u see all the details la..

For overhaul they need at least 3 days for testing & diagnose

How's your car now?

U mean they need 3 days is just for GB testing and diagnose only or including the overhaul works?If that's the case I should give them a try.Need ur oppinion whether should I go for an ATF change first as recommended by some mechanic or straight away proceed with the opening up the GB.Even if I go for ATF change the cost will be 1K+ , but just worry that it won't solve the problems.
My car still feel slight shudder between 3rd to 4th gear but this does not happen everytime. It is just like happened in the morning or during heavy rain. quite wierd kind of situation and still the diagnoses from GT1 does not show any fault code.

 

[zam zainal]

U mean they need 3 days is just for GB testing and diagnose only or including the overhaul works?If that's the case I should give them a try.Need ur oppinion whether should I go for an ATF change first as recommended by some mechanic or straight away proceed with the opening up the GB.Even if I go for ATF change the cost will be 1K+ , but just worry that it won't solve the problems.
My car still feel slight shudder between 3rd to 4th gear but this does not happen everytime. It is just like happened in the morning or during heavy rain. quite wierd kind of situation and still the diagnoses from GT1 does not show any fault code.

Firz,

THE MOST IMPORTANT THING NOW, DONT DRIVE YOUR CAR OR EVEN TRY TO SWITCH ON THE ENGINE,
PARK IT AND I MAY HELP YOU ARRANGE THE TOW TRUCK CONTENA TO PICK UP YOUR CAR.

Swiitching on the engine will further damaging the GB

FYI, 3 days is for the total overhaul and testing..

And pls dont change the GB oil, its just a waste of money.. RM 1K++.. pls dont do it.. i've done it before and its such a waste of money, time and HOPE!!!..

My advise, bring it to the w/shop that i PM u previously, and ask them to open up the GB.. 300 ringgit only for labour..then they'll show the damage item.

When water gets in your GB the first thing kena is the solenoid aka electrical wiring inside the valve body,
they'll change a new wiring.

Then if thing getting worst, some of your clutch plate also gone, or kembang cos of water.. and this cause slipping to your GB.

Lastly, the torque converter, but this seldom happen.

So, if u want me to help u, pm me your mobile

 

[FIRZ67]

Zam,

Just FYI, since the problems started in early January this year and after changing of the oil cooler aka heat exchanger, I had even drove my car back to Alor Setar and still until now nothing happened and the car is still drivable. The car performance also still normal and just curious whether it has further damaged the GB.

 

[FIRZ67]

Firz,

THE MOST IMPORTANT THING NOW, DONT DRIVE YOUR CAR OR EVEN TRY TO SWITCH ON THE ENGINE,
PARK IT AND I MAY HELP YOU ARRANGE THE TOW TRUCK CONTENA TO PICK UP YOUR CAR.

Swiitching on the engine will further damaging the GB

FYI, 3 days is for the total overhaul and testing..

And pls dont change the GB oil, its just a waste of money.. RM 1K++.. pls dont do it.. i've done it before and its such a waste of money, time and HOPE!!!..

My advise, bring it to the w/shop that i PM u previously, and ask them to open up the GB.. 300 ringgit only for labour..then they'll show the damage item.

When water gets in your GB the first thing kena is the solenoid aka electrical wiring inside the valve body,
they'll change a new wiring.

Then if thing getting worst, some of your clutch plate also gone, or kembang cos of water.. and this cause slipping to your GB.

Lastly, the torque converter, but this seldom happen.

So, if u want me to help u, pm me your mobile

Hi zam,

Today managed to send my car to Mscope and after they diagnosed using special port direct to the GB, the error code revealed - 'active clutch slipping'. It even showed how many times the things occured. Foreman from Mscope suggested to rebuild the mechatronic module @ valve body. They will change the solenoid and wiring inside the valve body. The gearbox is intact and untouched. They started the work at 12.00 pm and the job completed at 6 pm. I've just collected my car at 7 pm today and look like they have resolved the problem. They have reprogrammed the GB and now the gear upshift and downshift is silky smooth. Car also feels more powerful now but still monitoring.The damage is RM 4.5K...

 

[sillycarx]

Sorry for not responding to this earlier... but I think my problem is Finally resolved. The problem is the engine heat exchanger. I actually changed my ATF heat exchanger thinking that the problem was the ATF line. But after a few weeks, the problem didn't go away. This time I am quite sure the problem is resolved and the problem is due to the engine heat exchanger. I was also been flushing and cleaning my radiator and I wanted to be very sure that my problem is solved. I am confident it is resolved, cause I've not had problems for the last 1500km, so now I declare case close From what I hear from AB Penang, there was another case of e90 with a engine heat exchanger leak and the symptom is exactly the same. No performance lost, only has oil in the radiator cooler expansion tank. My mileage was 100k when this happen, and the other car was also around the same. So maybe if you want, it might not be a bad idea to change both heat exchanger at about 100k.

 

[jarance]

Based on my experience on the E46, the heat exchanger problem and GB problem (slightly sluggish) is due to the thermostat located inside the expansion tank.

This thermostat tends to get chocked up by the white sludge (expired coolant) because it it located at the bottom of the expansion tank.

zam, thank for mentioning me.. ha.. ha.. I have heard quite a lot people have problem with their GB after changing ATF. The problem actually arises from using the wrong ATF. So, Please use BMW ATF to avoid problem.