Non vanos - vanos ZF GEARBOX swop?

[Roberto]

Hi Siffus,

I have a problem. E34 with a non vanos wiring harness and non vanos Zf 5hp18 gearbox. It has the "small socket" 14 pin plug.

It is kaput.

I'm looking at changing to a good used 5hp18 but this one came out of a vanos car. It has the "large socket", and a different transmission ecu and different pin locations. However, it is a good transmission.

I've put in the ecu from the new transmission in my car and the gbox goes into limp mode immediately. Only reverse, park, neutral and third gear. Switch the ecus back and the gearbox is fine.

Is there a way to get the later gearbox to fit my earlier car without much problem? Has anyone done this before ? Thanks.



Roberto


EDIT : This issue has been conclusively solved. Please see http://www.bmwclubmalaysia.com/newforums/index.php?/topic/36385-non-vanos-vanos-zf-gearbox-swop/#entry712250

 

[alantiong]

can be done but with some difficulties. the different between the two gb is the valve body and the internal wiring for the valve body. so, you will have to open up the whole gb and swap over the internal wiring and valve body.. which .. err defeats the purpose. i would rather use back the old gb, go to FT motors in taman bolton and get a whole repair kit. complete with friction bands, plates, shims, orings and new filter and rebuild it. its only tear and wear parts. make sure you get the borg warner kit. forget bout the rest.

 

[Roberto]

I was told that the valve bodies and torque convertors are cross compatible across both transmissions with no problems? No wiring changes ? Just plug and play ? Two different mechanics told me that.

The valve body inside the gb (looks like a laptop) has a small plug that fits in inside another plug in the gearbox. This I suppose connects to the socket outside the gearbox and then to the wiring harness and then to the transmission ecu?

Anyway I regard forummers opinions very highly so please can you advise ? Thank you.

I have a second question, regarding your suggestion about getting the borg warner kit master overhaul kit for the ZF gearbox :

1. How much is that kit for a 5hp18, roughly?
2. Any idea if it is the same kit for the 5hp18 for the non vanos and vanos M50 gearboxes ?
3. Will this help fix valve body problems ?
4. How much for the service at Taman Bolton and how long do they take to do this ?

Thanks Alan your advise is very important and appreciated.

 

[Roberto]

I'm talking about the plug on the valve body, indicated in the picture here

 

[alantiong]

roberto,

to answer you Questions.

Two Different valves body. Looks the same but functioning differently. different number of wires.

Plug shown. Yes that is the one runs all the way out. It splits somewhere in between. There are more signal on the later version as more parameter was taken into consideration for better efficiency. sompart of teh splits is embedded so its not ment to be taken out. once out.. is to be thrown away.


1. How much is that kit for a 5hp18, roughly? My guess is around 2600.00 for the kit.
2. Any idea if it is the same kit for the 5hp18 for the non vanos and vanos M50 gearboxes ?> it is the same as both are mechanically identical.
3. Will this help fix valve body problems ? Valves body do not wear and tear parts. Just get choked up and few orings need replacement. So you can actually take out the valvebody, remove the solenoids, and throw it in an ultra sonic pan. you will be surprised how much gunk and carbon stucked inside. if ur friction components are ok< you might be able to get away with a flush.
4. How much for the service at Taman Bolton and how long do they take to do this ? FT is only selling the kit. Every workshop takes from them. you will still need to find a workshop to do the job. There is a guy who use to be "specialist" at EH is on his own now. he is good. But pain in the butt. very fussy. but good for fussy people like us. he is somewhere at kepong behind Aeon big now. i know the place but i dun have the address. if u want i can teman u go there one day. he charges like 1800-2500 with oil.

my number is 012-7177082

 

[Roberto]

Alan, thank you for that good info. Yup about 5k net is what I have been quoted too. To expensive for me. Looking for a more cost effective option. But thank you for that I have saved it and I will look you up eventually its good to be able to call a sifu.

I need more information about this though :

roberto,

to answer you Questions.

Two Different valves body. Looks the same but functioning differently. different number of wires.

Plug shown. Yes that is the one runs all the way out. It splits somewhere in between. There are more signal on the later version as more parameter was taken into consideration for better efficiency. sompart of teh splits is embedded so its not ment to be taken out. once out.. is to be thrown away.

1. What do you mean by it splits somewhere in between? Does it split between the plug shown and the valve body itself? Of between whatever connects to the VB's plug and the inside of the transmission?

2. To what I understand, the difference between both gearboxes are not the number of active pins. Both have only 14 pins but only 12 active ones. However, both have different size sockets, different ecus with slightly different maps, and different individual pin locations on the ecu clamp.

Please advise me further.

I'd like you to take a look at this link which discussed the same issue in practice :

http://www.justanswer.com/bmw/60vvk-bmw-a5s310z-gearbox-connector-plug-numbered.html

Now though that is a forum style thing, it is not a normal forum. People ask questions through the website and actually pay actual mechanics to answer those questions. The dialogue that follows is posted there in a forum format but it is all paid for but the guy asking the question. They still post it there so that others who are interested will ask more questions to the paid mechanics.

So I would really like your thoughts. Thank you.

 

[anakin]

Hi Roberto...I don't know nuts to share about technical thing, a few mechanics that I'd seen qoute me RM4k to rebuild/ overhaul my E34 M50b25 non vanos. One mech (Fatty of Bandar Tun Razak) will DIY and others will outsources...but all at 4k..

 

[Roberto]

Thank you Anakin. Some have quoted me that as well. But most quoted 5k including oil filter and labour.

 

[Roberto]

Alan, how do you clean your valve body if you don't have a large ultrasonic tank ? I want to try cleaning mine might help.

 

[alantiong]

rendam in kerosene and shake.. takes some time..

 

[Roberto]

Thanks Alan. Would appreciate if you could address the questions I asked earlier and checked out the 'forum' link. btw they charge from RM50-RM100 to answer each question !

 

[alantiong]

this will take sometimes for me to digest before i can comment.

 

[Roberto]

Alright, for everyone searching about this, this is the solution.

1. Vanos and non vanos 5HP18s have slightly different valve body connectors and different tcms.
2. If you are switching VBs between both, all you need to do is keep the VB's internal wiring harness that came with your gearbox. Use the VB from the other transmission, if the socket size is different, but retain your existing wiring harness.
3. The socket that you see outside the gearbox (which connects to the car's wiring harness) is actually the SAME SOCKET that leads directly to the valve body. It is pushed through a hole in the transmission case and exposed to the outside. There is an o ring there to protect against leaks..
4. The individual solenoid and sensor connectors on the VB's wiring harness are interchangeable with each other.The VB wiring harness can be disconnected and reconnected to the new VB without difficulty, and without risk of damaging the wiring (only disconnect everything once the VB is out of the car, to make it simple). The VB's function the same. The number of wires is also exactly the same.
5. The solenoids are interchangeable with each other. You can ignore the different part numbers.
6. Apart from this difference, both VB's and completely interchangeable. The gearbox will work perfectly.
7. Torque convertors from both 5hp18 non vanos and vanos transmissions are also completely interchangeable with each other. The gearbox will work perfectly.
8. The clutches and internal gear assembly are also interchangeable. The gearbox will work perfectly.

This is obvious once you look at it. It is a no brainer when you look at it. You don't need to think and understand and figure out or wonder, or whatever. It is not an act of engineering intelligence, but an act of simple recognition.

So if you have a VB issue, (and you can test solenoid resistances through the TCM's connector, and by using a code reader to see and read the detailed EGS codes ) just change the valve body if the rest of your transmission does not give you any problems. Keep your old vb, throw away just the sensors or solenoids that are dead. These will be useful spares for future issues, and can also be resold for others who need a solenoid or two cheap.

There is neither need nor a better idea to change clutches, seals, etc etc etc, as was suggested earlier, if the problem is the VB.

This same methodology applies to other transmission with the same designation, but with different TCMs and socket sizes for Vanos and Non vanos models.

Its such a simple fix !!

Thank you to all the contributors and I hope this will be useful to someone else down the line.


Roberto

 

[anakin]

Err...sorry to ask, how did you know it a VB problem? symptom?

 

[Roberto]

Hard shifts are usually VB issues. Jerks from neutral to drive or reverse can also be those.You can also check resistances of solenoids and sensors through the tcm's clamp, with a digital multimeter. Even if they check out, there could be a mechanical, not electrical, problem with some of the solenoids.

There are also many other possible symptoms and to some extent it is guesswork as bad clutches or a bad convertor can also create those issues. And you may have more than one form of damage affecting you at the same time. So changing a whole box and keeping your old one's VB as a spare is a good idea.

Search for and download your transmission's electrical troubleshooting manual. There will be a big chart over there with all kinds of symptoms and possible causes.

This was not a troubleshooting thread so I didn't go into it.