E46Fanatic
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Hmm I don't understand. Is 50/50 weight distribution a good thing in your opinion then?
Maser Quattroporte kills M5 & B5
- Thread starter zagato
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supergripen
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supergripen
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:blink: cool..didn't sound like it before though..
no matter..everyone entitled to their own opinions.
supergripen
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i like the Cayman S..
azzy-CSL-wuzzy
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just one question... what's the times for a maser quattroporte on the nuerbergering?? that is the ultimate track where all cars are tested and benchmarked...
who cares about other tracks...
:yahoo:
who cares about other tracks...
:yahoo:
wirelessjunkie
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50:50 is possible for all cars depending the weight distribution. It's BMW's old marketing tagline that stuck in our minds. The GTV6 and Alfettas all have 50:50 distribution.
What BMW don't tell the world about it's 50:50 is that how is it achieved? Full tank? Half tank? typical 100KG German driver or 55KG Asian Driver? German babe or Asian Babe by the side? I believe 50:50 os all marketing hype. Someone should track a front bias Integra (yea, Jap) against an E46 on the track.
I seriously doubt that the technology in the Maser is dated as suggested as there are quite a bit of stuff that goes on in the car. Just take a look at the induction plenum, that's F1 stuff in there as well as the Ferrari sourced gearbox. BMW has volume control etc on the steering and what does the Maser have? What about sound track? Rev both engines and let your ears decide. BMW engines always tend to be on the metalic side.
I like Bimmers as much as I like the Italians expecially the older models but I feel the newer Bimmers have gone soft. It's more akin to a luxury handbag than a driver machine. No one really "drive" their machines the way it ought to be anymore nowadays but instead "visual tuning" and detailing are the game of the day. Zoggee, you are the last of the Mohicans in here. No offence but I think the last real 3 series is the E36 (E46's M3's ok but for the harsh idling sound).
If I can afford it? I'll go for the Maser as it's darn exotic and the snarl puts the boy racer back into me.
What BMW don't tell the world about it's 50:50 is that how is it achieved? Full tank? Half tank? typical 100KG German driver or 55KG Asian Driver? German babe or Asian Babe by the side? I believe 50:50 os all marketing hype. Someone should track a front bias Integra (yea, Jap) against an E46 on the track.
I seriously doubt that the technology in the Maser is dated as suggested as there are quite a bit of stuff that goes on in the car. Just take a look at the induction plenum, that's F1 stuff in there as well as the Ferrari sourced gearbox. BMW has volume control etc on the steering and what does the Maser have? What about sound track? Rev both engines and let your ears decide. BMW engines always tend to be on the metalic side.
I like Bimmers as much as I like the Italians expecially the older models but I feel the newer Bimmers have gone soft. It's more akin to a luxury handbag than a driver machine. No one really "drive" their machines the way it ought to be anymore nowadays but instead "visual tuning" and detailing are the game of the day. Zoggee, you are the last of the Mohicans in here. No offence but I think the last real 3 series is the E36 (E46's M3's ok but for the harsh idling sound).
If I can afford it? I'll go for the Maser as it's darn exotic and the snarl puts the boy racer back into me.
wirelessjunkie
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Give Zagato a break. He was just highlighting that Alfa achieved 50:50 in their production cars way before BMW took that marketing slant. Btw, he's an ex- M3 Evo owner who's worth his salt.
I recall the handling of my first E36 not being too exciting especially around the corners so I had it sorted out with Bilstiens coilovers and ACS antiroll bars etc. 50:50 didn't help me in that area without the enhanced setup. For the average driving style, it should suffice but should you want ot be more adventurous then it's not.
EVO (UK) is one of the most unbias magazines in the UK speaking their minds. CAR (UK) is leaning towards EVO nowdays. A bunch of hard cores run EVO and in the past, they used to have a budget to modify their fleet cars which included a highly tuned Forester
Btw, I still can't find an O2 for sale.
50:50 is marketing hype. the much admired porsches have nowhere near 50:50 weight distribution and they're still quite quick, aren't they?
there are 2 kinds of drivers in the world:
1) the guys who cant drive and rely on 50:50 la, 4WD la, traction control la, yaw control la, launch control la, whatever control la, to do the work for them. these guys need all the help they can get so, yah, they latch on to any technological advantage they have.
2) guys who can drive who can go quick even in a 20-yr old pile of junk. FWD/RWD/4WD doesnt matter. who needs traction/yaw/launch control? oversteer or understeer? drive around it!
which are u?
yep, someone's next gonna say "but 50:50 will give u that added edge, those precious milliseconds, that will make the diff between winning and losing". guys, how many of u drive so close to the edge that those milliseconds matter? ive never seen a traffic light drag or a highway battle decided by a nose. even at the track winners and losers are separated by car lengths, not milliseconds, at our level.
sorry, but im old school. im the sorta guy who will drool at a pushrod funny car with zero electronics which will decimate the quartermile in 4 seconds flat, versus some pumped up tokyo taxi on steroids with enough computing power to predict the end of the world but cant hold its own out there on the strip.
technology is just a means to an end. its the results that matter most.
redd
there are 2 kinds of drivers in the world:
1) the guys who cant drive and rely on 50:50 la, 4WD la, traction control la, yaw control la, launch control la, whatever control la, to do the work for them. these guys need all the help they can get so, yah, they latch on to any technological advantage they have.
2) guys who can drive who can go quick even in a 20-yr old pile of junk. FWD/RWD/4WD doesnt matter. who needs traction/yaw/launch control? oversteer or understeer? drive around it!
which are u?
yep, someone's next gonna say "but 50:50 will give u that added edge, those precious milliseconds, that will make the diff between winning and losing". guys, how many of u drive so close to the edge that those milliseconds matter? ive never seen a traffic light drag or a highway battle decided by a nose. even at the track winners and losers are separated by car lengths, not milliseconds, at our level.
sorry, but im old school. im the sorta guy who will drool at a pushrod funny car with zero electronics which will decimate the quartermile in 4 seconds flat, versus some pumped up tokyo taxi on steroids with enough computing power to predict the end of the world but cant hold its own out there on the strip.
technology is just a means to an end. its the results that matter most.
redd
wirelessjunkie
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I just hit the pedal and rev all the way
E46Fanatic
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Ya man.. why bother with BMWs, Alfas, Evo's, Masser, Ferrari, Porsche's etc. A Proton Saga with a VR4 engine is good enough.. heh.
Zoggee
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:blush: why am I being pulled in..????
I dunno la...I can't afford even a new BMW la. Sometime whenI tried to tell ah..they scold me wan.. :cry:
I learned the hardway...lessons well learned when overhauling my bro's M52B28...mahai!!! BMW not stupid la.
No doubt,I still love BMW but only with cast iron block....!!!(M10,M30,M40 and M20) as for handling. Dun be fooled into believing the 50:50 weight distribution la. Like WJ says..its a marketing quote by BMW la. :getyourfactsright:
BMW gone soft liao... :yes: all cars ( M54 and above) complies to the Fa.%king EU comission lioa. :hmmph:
Drive and comment...dun comment from reading magazines. :getyourfactsright: Thats all I can say... :blush:
E46Fanatic
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I think those who think that 50/50 weight distribution does no good thing except for marketing purposes, is really from the layman speaking and not the other way around.
Its documented as one of the ideals in automotive or chassis engineering principles and supports the laws of physics. You can go to the bookstore and buy books on this (e.g. http://www.themotorbookstore.com/chenchdebutu.html) or google university course material on Automotive engineering material to see how weight distribution impacts vehicle dynamics.
Even looking at Porsche's history, their engineers have strived to achieve a more balanced weight distribution for their cars. There is also a HUGE difference in vehicle dynamics of a front heavy car vs. a rear heavy car, which is why its ignorant to say that since the 911 does not have 50/50 weight distribution and is fast and handles well, my nose heavy car has similar vehicle dynamics.
For BMW's case, there has been so many design compromises to achive this engineering ideal.. such as:
1) Narrow wheel well fo front driver and passenger
2) Battery in the trunk with lead power cables running across the chassis to the engine compartment
3) Full sized spare in most cases
4) Use of expensive exotic metals in suspension and front chassis with special welding techniques employed
5) Engine pushed as far back to the cabin as possible reducing space in the cabin
6) etc..
Hardly good compromises from a Joe blow consumer who does not appreciate the engineering principles behind the design. Personally, I have know a few people who decided NOT to buy the BMW mainly to things like narrow wheel well and small cabin space, and opted for more "spacious" alternative FWD type cars instead. Nothing wrong with that, just different preferences. Not everyone will know how to appreciate such design principles and compromises, and BMW's target market is for those who do.
Its documented as one of the ideals in automotive or chassis engineering principles and supports the laws of physics. You can go to the bookstore and buy books on this (e.g. http://www.themotorbookstore.com/chenchdebutu.html) or google university course material on Automotive engineering material to see how weight distribution impacts vehicle dynamics.
Even looking at Porsche's history, their engineers have strived to achieve a more balanced weight distribution for their cars. There is also a HUGE difference in vehicle dynamics of a front heavy car vs. a rear heavy car, which is why its ignorant to say that since the 911 does not have 50/50 weight distribution and is fast and handles well, my nose heavy car has similar vehicle dynamics.
For BMW's case, there has been so many design compromises to achive this engineering ideal.. such as:
1) Narrow wheel well fo front driver and passenger
2) Battery in the trunk with lead power cables running across the chassis to the engine compartment
3) Full sized spare in most cases
4) Use of expensive exotic metals in suspension and front chassis with special welding techniques employed
5) Engine pushed as far back to the cabin as possible reducing space in the cabin
6) etc..
Hardly good compromises from a Joe blow consumer who does not appreciate the engineering principles behind the design. Personally, I have know a few people who decided NOT to buy the BMW mainly to things like narrow wheel well and small cabin space, and opted for more "spacious" alternative FWD type cars instead. Nothing wrong with that, just different preferences. Not everyone will know how to appreciate such design principles and compromises, and BMW's target market is for those who do.
There's no such thing as Maserati kills BMW M5 or ALPINA B5. It is proven in most magazines that M5 still reign supreme and holds the title as the ultimate performance saloon. I dont know, maybe EVO mag couldnt be trusted.
You wont come across magazines stating 'audi basher', or 'mercedes basher' or even 'maserati basher'. It always been 'bmw basher' means BMW always seen as benchmark to other car manufacturers...and so far BMW M5 manages to hold its crown since the beginning till now. But that gotta wait till the new Audi RS6 comes. and 3 series E90 also managed to hold its crown on its category when compete with C-class, the new Audi A4, etc.
I dont think BMW has gone soft in terms of drivability. It is just that people wont trash their new cars because they were like just bought them for a week? Nobody wants to trash their new cars.
BMW always tried to balance between performance, luxury and driving pleasure so that we can get everything in one package. you cant expect BMW to be as luxurious as Mercedes or as fast as Buggati Veyron or you cant expect BMW to make old models like the E30, E36, E34. But im pretty sure they are improving in terms of performance, luxury , driving pleasure.. (magazine review says E90 driving pleasure is back and much better in E46 which lack of old car's magic)
Times are changing and so are the cars. If you still insists that u like older models compare to new one, how about u buy the recent models and strip it all over? lol just joking
You wont come across magazines stating 'audi basher', or 'mercedes basher' or even 'maserati basher'. It always been 'bmw basher' means BMW always seen as benchmark to other car manufacturers...and so far BMW M5 manages to hold its crown since the beginning till now. But that gotta wait till the new Audi RS6 comes. and 3 series E90 also managed to hold its crown on its category when compete with C-class, the new Audi A4, etc.
I dont think BMW has gone soft in terms of drivability. It is just that people wont trash their new cars because they were like just bought them for a week? Nobody wants to trash their new cars.
BMW always tried to balance between performance, luxury and driving pleasure so that we can get everything in one package. you cant expect BMW to be as luxurious as Mercedes or as fast as Buggati Veyron or you cant expect BMW to make old models like the E30, E36, E34. But im pretty sure they are improving in terms of performance, luxury , driving pleasure.. (magazine review says E90 driving pleasure is back and much better in E46 which lack of old car's magic)
Times are changing and so are the cars. If you still insists that u like older models compare to new one, how about u buy the recent models and strip it all over? lol just joking
E46Fanatic
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I think bottom line is that ego is what makes people defend to the death the merits of the vehicle they drive.... Give them a new M5 or even M3, and the story changes after that...
All are guilty (including myself). ding! ding!
All are guilty (including myself). ding! ding!
e46f, if uv studied vehicle dynamics, u shd also realise that 50/50 is a static thing. when ur out there running the car and shifting weight with braking and acceleration, pray tell how does it apply?
and yes, while static weight distribution does affect weight transfer and grip over each axle, overall mechanical grip is also a factor of various other factors such as spring rate, suspension geometry, ARBs, camber, toe, caster, etc. a lot more factors control weight distribution and mechanical grip other than just static weight distribution.
in a nutshell, while a car may not have 50/50 weight distribution, high mechanical grip can be tuned into the chassis using the other components. a 50/50 car with crappy ARBs is just as flawed as a car with 60/40 and a good suspension setup.
but, of course, im sure u knew all that.
im not disputing the worthiness of bimmers here. just disputing the relevance of this 50/50 hype. btw, i hear not all bimmers have 50/50 weight distribution, just certain models. am i right?
redd
and yes, while static weight distribution does affect weight transfer and grip over each axle, overall mechanical grip is also a factor of various other factors such as spring rate, suspension geometry, ARBs, camber, toe, caster, etc. a lot more factors control weight distribution and mechanical grip other than just static weight distribution.
in a nutshell, while a car may not have 50/50 weight distribution, high mechanical grip can be tuned into the chassis using the other components. a 50/50 car with crappy ARBs is just as flawed as a car with 60/40 and a good suspension setup.
but, of course, im sure u knew all that.
im not disputing the worthiness of bimmers here. just disputing the relevance of this 50/50 hype. btw, i hear not all bimmers have 50/50 weight distribution, just certain models. am i right?
redd
supergripen
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everyone is entitled to their own beliefs and opinion..on 50/50, hype or no hype,it works.its clear for all to see as bmw dominates in all that it enters,like it or not.but i also believe each cars have their own strengths be they FWD,RWD or 4WD.
personally,i prefer 4WD for all out attack on the twisties.for long distance high speed cruising i'd go for RWD and i'd get my wife a nice FWD,something she cud easily handle..
as for electronics,i'd take all the help i can get cuz i'm no Schumacher..i'll put my ego aside for safekeeping cuz when and if i lose control of the car and crash,it won't be worth anything..savvy?? :wink:
BMW rules,the new M3 is going to kick ass..and its RWD ese..
personally,i prefer 4WD for all out attack on the twisties.for long distance high speed cruising i'd go for RWD and i'd get my wife a nice FWD,something she cud easily handle..
as for electronics,i'd take all the help i can get cuz i'm no Schumacher..i'll put my ego aside for safekeeping cuz when and if i lose control of the car and crash,it won't be worth anything..savvy?? :wink:
BMW rules,the new M3 is going to kick ass..and its RWD ese..
