Foaming the chassis
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The Necessary
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Lee,
I'm glad you have alot of faith in foaming, especially the foaming done by KL Auto Accessories under the brand Autofoam. Good for you.
No one is attacking them in particular.
I think your viewpoints have been heard/read before, and unless you have something new to contribute to this thread, like Redd has, I don't think you need to keep defending your choice/belief/Autofoam.
I'm glad you have alot of faith in foaming, especially the foaming done by KL Auto Accessories under the brand Autofoam. Good for you.
No one is attacking them in particular.
I think your viewpoints have been heard/read before, and unless you have something new to contribute to this thread, like Redd has, I don't think you need to keep defending your choice/belief/Autofoam.
DanPromote
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Hmm.. no doubt it will not crumple as per manufacturer's design but nobody knows whether it will crumple better or worse after foaming? I guess the only way to find out is to have extensive crash testing but I doubt anyone will volunteer his car 
Lee36328
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I guess what's wonderful and precious about this country is free speech. I will post my opinions, views, conjectures etc. If it violates forum policies, moderators will do their duties of course.
Autofoam is a specific brand name, which has been quoted misleadingly to represent (or perhaps misunderstood as representing) all car foaming, including DIY off-the-shelf cans, which is unfair to the brand. So, when Redd's thread is entitled "Autofoam lovers, please read this", can you say no one is attacking this brand?
This recent addition to this discussion, in this and other forums, contained some unsubstantiated conjecture which I feel compelled to comment on, so I commented.
And yes, to be perfectly balanced and fair, if I was driving the latest continental car model, and not a model almost 10 years old, I would place more credibility to the crash test rating, and think more carefully on whether to foam, and which part to foam. (I simply can't afford the latest cars at the moment, and my car 9-year-old car is pretty crash unsafe by today's standards, with its lone airbag and all, I would hazard a guess, so it is less of a consideration for me.)
And if I was driving a modern Japanese car, with all due respect to Japanese technology, I would still foam the vehicle thoroughly.
DanPromote, if I crash my old car, and survive to tell the tale, I will post it here. But even then, it is just one case, and will not prove anything conclusively.
The Necessary
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Yes, yes, Lee, you pitbull terrier, protector of all things Autofoam. I'm sorry, either I'm blind or you're seeing things; where on Redd's posting does it say; "Autofoam lovers, please read this"?
OK all, if you want Lee to shut up, please stop posting anything negative about foaming your vehicle, and in particular, Autofoam. Cos Lee will then exercise his constituitional, god given rights, and no amount of good taste, to offer his opinions, views, conjectures, etc.
Please read the thread from beginning to end and make up your own mind whether an engineer is more reliable, or some dude who takes alot of corners.
OK all, if you want Lee to shut up, please stop posting anything negative about foaming your vehicle, and in particular, Autofoam. Cos Lee will then exercise his constituitional, god given rights, and no amount of good taste, to offer his opinions, views, conjectures, etc.
Please read the thread from beginning to end and make up your own mind whether an engineer is more reliable, or some dude who takes alot of corners.
E46Fanatic
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Yea, the thread has been very informative, (minus the interesting personality clashes). At the end you the consumer decide if foaming your car is worthwhile.... If you believe in it, hey by all means go ahead... Personally I wouldn't touch it, but thats just me.
Even with a really safe car, you can loose your life when a bolt falls of a truck in front of you and smashes through your windscreen and hits you where its fatal... Happend before here on the highway...
Even with a really safe car, you can loose your life when a bolt falls of a truck in front of you and smashes through your windscreen and hits you where its fatal... Happend before here on the highway...
Lee36328
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No, you are not blind; the title "Autofoam lovers, please read this" was used in autoworld's thread, with the same posting cut and paste verbatim. It got quite colourful after that.
"Please read the thread from beginning to end and make up your own mind whether an engineer is more reliable, or some dude who takes alot of corners."
Fair nuff.
E46Fanatic,
I say man, where got personality clashes? So far, it's been best behaviour and quite logical and civilised responses from everyone.... kudos to all; it really does this forum justice. To see personality clashes, refer the same thread in autoworld.
I will shut up now. B)
first off, my apologies on using the trademarked "autofoam" name in the title of my threads in AW and IA.
i will now insert a space between "auto" and "foam" so all u legal monkeys can get off my back.
i could give a rat's ass if autofoam or auto foam or vehicle foam or shaving foam succeeds or fails. i dont own share in it or its competitors companies.
i am sharing information which i thot was useful from an engineering standpoint. some ppl have decided that i somehow am on a crusade against autofoam [the product] and have seen it necessary to correct me.
i dont care about autofoam. keep on using it for all i care. ur using/supporting/preaching autofoam wont change the laws (yes, they are LAWS not theories) of physics.
if after reading my info u still wanna use autofoam or auto foam, pls do so. my only aim is to enlighten those with an open mind on the possible risks of using such a product.
do i have conclusive evidence? no (actually yes, but im not allowed to show it). do YOU have conclusive evidence? no. but guess what, in a technical battle, my subject matter expert will hold more water than ur subject matter expert. so suck it up.
ive had a bad day. provoke me further at ur own risk.
redd
i will now insert a space between "auto" and "foam" so all u legal monkeys can get off my back.
i could give a rat's ass if autofoam or auto foam or vehicle foam or shaving foam succeeds or fails. i dont own share in it or its competitors companies.
i am sharing information which i thot was useful from an engineering standpoint. some ppl have decided that i somehow am on a crusade against autofoam [the product] and have seen it necessary to correct me.
i dont care about autofoam. keep on using it for all i care. ur using/supporting/preaching autofoam wont change the laws (yes, they are LAWS not theories) of physics.
if after reading my info u still wanna use autofoam or auto foam, pls do so. my only aim is to enlighten those with an open mind on the possible risks of using such a product.
do i have conclusive evidence? no (actually yes, but im not allowed to show it). do YOU have conclusive evidence? no. but guess what, in a technical battle, my subject matter expert will hold more water than ur subject matter expert. so suck it up.
ive had a bad day. provoke me further at ur own risk.
redd
Lee36328
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It seems I have spoken too soon. Oh dear.
I concur that it is hard to argue against conclusive evidence, and harder still if the conclusive evidence is not allowed to be shown.
And yes, your expert does seem to have more credentials... still, would be nice to see proof though.
And btw, thanks for trying to change the title. Appreciate the attempt/gesture.
B)
This was copied from SCC magazine:
Foam-Filling the Chassis
In any high-performance car, it is impossible to make the chassis too stiff. The stiffer the chassis, the higher its natural frequency, making the energy imparted to it by bumps less likely to excite the body's structure. A stiffer chassis enables the use of stiffer springs and shocks without hurting the ride. This is because a stiff, non-flexing chassis transfers more force into the suspension where it can be dissipated by the springs and shocks instead of transferring the force to the occupants. A stiff chassis is also more responsive to roll rate tuning for balancing understeer and oversteer. This is one of the reasons why automotive engineers are continually investigating ways to stiffen chassis without adding weight.
In a final bit of reengineering to stiffen the body, we injected the chassis with catalyzed rigid structural polyurethane foam. Structural foam, in the 2 lb per cubic foot density that we used, can stiffen chassis members up to 40 percent.
Higher densities of foam can increase stiffness by up to 300 percent. Since we cannot retool custom parts to redo the Z's body, we figured that this would be an excellent, low-cost way of greatly increasing chassis stiffness. Injecting foam is not a new technique for chassis stiffening. The Infiniti Q45 uses this sort of foam in some of its chassis members to increase stiffness, as do a few other premium cars. In fact, the foam we chose is the foam recommended to repair damaged Q45s.
To get the correct foam for our project, we contacted Art Goldman, Foamseal's automotive product manager and author of an SAE (Society of Automotive Engineers) paper on the use of structural foam for the stiffening of automotive unibody structures. We used Foamseal's two-component foam kit, p/n 11-22 to fill the main members of the chassis. Like we mentioned earlier, Foamseal is the supplier that I-CAR, a national certification group for quality auto repair, recommends for the repair of damaged, foam-filled chassis. The Foamseal kit uses a two-part catalyzed polyurethane foam, which quickly cures into rigid, waterproof, closed-cell foam. To prep the car, we carefully masked off all painted areas anywhere where the foam could drip. As this sort of foam is a thermosetting catalyzed plastic, we realized it could be icky if it spilled on paint or any part of the car's interior. This foam is nasty stuff. It is impervious to all known solvents and cleaners.
Rubber gloves must be worn. Get some of it on your hands and it will stay there for more than 3 weeks--don't ask how we know. Do not get this stuff on your paint. Wear old clothes; we ruined ours while learning how to handle the product. We injected the foam into the rocker panels and frame rails of Project Z through existing bolt and drain holes. When injected, the foam reacts like shaving cream and quickly expands to fill the empty space. You can judge how much foam to add by watching its expansion progress through some of the holes. Once injected, the foam expands and begins to cure in about a minute so you need to work fast and plan how you inject the foam before you start.
The life of the foam kit is limited to a few hours once the seal is broken. We filled all of the Z's unibody frame members using five foam kits. When foaming a chassis, you must remember the wires and other lines that pass through the chassis must be relocated or they will be entombed forever.
We were amazed at how this simple procedure improved the performance of the car. The chassis now almost feels like it has a roll cage. A sloped driveway can be driven up sideways with nary a creak. Even though the Z already has a pretty tight chassis, it feels more solid. The ride has improved and road noise has been reduced noticeably. We bet that the car will be even more responsive to chassis tuning measures in the future. If you are a slalom racer, a road racer, have a lowered car or even just want a smoother ride; foaming is a worthy, easy-to-do modification. Foamseal has foams in densities as high as 10 lbs per square foot if you desire to make things even stiffer.
Do not--I repeat--do not attempt to use cheap, hardware-store canned foam. This is not the same thing, and if injected into your chassis, will form a gummy mass that won't dry. Foamseal foam is a professional grade foam, which although it is a little unforgiving to cleanup mistakes, has superior mechanical properties and catalytic curing so it will dry even in an enclosed space.
Foam-Filling the Chassis
In any high-performance car, it is impossible to make the chassis too stiff. The stiffer the chassis, the higher its natural frequency, making the energy imparted to it by bumps less likely to excite the body's structure. A stiffer chassis enables the use of stiffer springs and shocks without hurting the ride. This is because a stiff, non-flexing chassis transfers more force into the suspension where it can be dissipated by the springs and shocks instead of transferring the force to the occupants. A stiff chassis is also more responsive to roll rate tuning for balancing understeer and oversteer. This is one of the reasons why automotive engineers are continually investigating ways to stiffen chassis without adding weight.
In a final bit of reengineering to stiffen the body, we injected the chassis with catalyzed rigid structural polyurethane foam. Structural foam, in the 2 lb per cubic foot density that we used, can stiffen chassis members up to 40 percent.
Higher densities of foam can increase stiffness by up to 300 percent. Since we cannot retool custom parts to redo the Z's body, we figured that this would be an excellent, low-cost way of greatly increasing chassis stiffness. Injecting foam is not a new technique for chassis stiffening. The Infiniti Q45 uses this sort of foam in some of its chassis members to increase stiffness, as do a few other premium cars. In fact, the foam we chose is the foam recommended to repair damaged Q45s.
To get the correct foam for our project, we contacted Art Goldman, Foamseal's automotive product manager and author of an SAE (Society of Automotive Engineers) paper on the use of structural foam for the stiffening of automotive unibody structures. We used Foamseal's two-component foam kit, p/n 11-22 to fill the main members of the chassis. Like we mentioned earlier, Foamseal is the supplier that I-CAR, a national certification group for quality auto repair, recommends for the repair of damaged, foam-filled chassis. The Foamseal kit uses a two-part catalyzed polyurethane foam, which quickly cures into rigid, waterproof, closed-cell foam. To prep the car, we carefully masked off all painted areas anywhere where the foam could drip. As this sort of foam is a thermosetting catalyzed plastic, we realized it could be icky if it spilled on paint or any part of the car's interior. This foam is nasty stuff. It is impervious to all known solvents and cleaners.
Rubber gloves must be worn. Get some of it on your hands and it will stay there for more than 3 weeks--don't ask how we know. Do not get this stuff on your paint. Wear old clothes; we ruined ours while learning how to handle the product. We injected the foam into the rocker panels and frame rails of Project Z through existing bolt and drain holes. When injected, the foam reacts like shaving cream and quickly expands to fill the empty space. You can judge how much foam to add by watching its expansion progress through some of the holes. Once injected, the foam expands and begins to cure in about a minute so you need to work fast and plan how you inject the foam before you start.
The life of the foam kit is limited to a few hours once the seal is broken. We filled all of the Z's unibody frame members using five foam kits. When foaming a chassis, you must remember the wires and other lines that pass through the chassis must be relocated or they will be entombed forever.
We were amazed at how this simple procedure improved the performance of the car. The chassis now almost feels like it has a roll cage. A sloped driveway can be driven up sideways with nary a creak. Even though the Z already has a pretty tight chassis, it feels more solid. The ride has improved and road noise has been reduced noticeably. We bet that the car will be even more responsive to chassis tuning measures in the future. If you are a slalom racer, a road racer, have a lowered car or even just want a smoother ride; foaming is a worthy, easy-to-do modification. Foamseal has foams in densities as high as 10 lbs per square foot if you desire to make things even stiffer.
Do not--I repeat--do not attempt to use cheap, hardware-store canned foam. This is not the same thing, and if injected into your chassis, will form a gummy mass that won't dry. Foamseal foam is a professional grade foam, which although it is a little unforgiving to cleanup mistakes, has superior mechanical properties and catalytic curing so it will dry even in an enclosed space.
Twin_Sparx
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Twin_Sparx is in the house!! :yahoo:
Anyone called?!
Good lord, persoanlly never expected a simple advice given to my alfa friends to be blown so out of proportion!!!
Anyone called?!
Good lord, persoanlly never expected a simple advice given to my alfa friends to be blown so out of proportion!!!
Jipster
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all I can say is I wish i could foam my ride* as I dont intend to crash it or let anyone else crash into it..... i just wanna get the best I can fr my car with the amount of money I have at my disposal.... if this was an ideal world I'd go out right now and get myself a scooby or something and I wouldnt be writing here at all :yes:
*ride's too old and rusty .... foaming aint gonna make a diff :lol:
*ride's too old and rusty .... foaming aint gonna make a diff :lol:
E46Fanatic
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Ahh.. great that you showed up.... Anymore insights from you on your findings in your simulations to share with the folks here?Originally posted by Twin_Sparx@Feb 14 2006, 10:38 AM
Twin_Sparx is in the house!! :yahoo:
Anyone called?!
Good lord, persoanlly never expected a simple advice given to my alfa friends to be blown so out of proportion!!!
The Necessary
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Maybe we should start a poll. Let democracy decide!
Twin_Sparx
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First and foremost, from a structural analyst's viewpoint, I have utter respect for BMW's structures. I have had the previlage to examine countless types of body-in-whites during the course of my career and BMW structures have always been one which I found very clinical, using a very thorough and clean approach. The body-in-white (BIW) by the way, is the underlying skeleton of a vehicle, after removing all fender panels and closures (door, hood, roof, w/screen).
The latest variants in particular have not only been scoring (near) perfect scores in the EuroNCAP test, but countless other tests for Japan and US legislations.
Since some of you have expressed interest in structural analysis and testing for vehicle crashworthiness, what I can do is start off with a short and brief description of what actually goes on, behind the client's eyes... the client obviously being YOU.
I'll try to write up something by the end of today.
