e39 ICE

[publicbus]

Got this interesting thread in 5-driver.com. It mentioned on a "free air" or "infinatebaffle" sub and also the alternator capacity.Here is the thread content :with an E39 you definately need a sub! the interior of the car is just too damn big not to use one.... JL Audio for example make some great subs for 'free air' or 'infinate baffle', this basically means bolting the sub under the shelf without using a box.I'm not going to go into great detail as to why (unless people want me to of course) but the interior of the E39 is good for sub-bass down to as low as 26hz....and thats damn low!As for amps it really depends on your budget, the alternator you have and your own personal taste in amplifier cosmetics. Just make sure you spend money on decent cable!The easiest way to get a signal to the amps is to use a good quality speaker to RCA convertor & take the feed for it from both rear deck speakers (L&R).As for the alternator, if you have for example a 100ah alternator, you only have maybe 30ah spare if your driving at night in the rain....if you then add an amp which needs upwards of 40ah to drive your speakers its gonna kill your alternator pretty quick. you shouldnt have a problem with one amp just be awareAnyone has done this in Malaysia?Cheers

 

[AstroCreep]

Hello publicbus,

I have two 12" subs mounted/hanging under the rear dash, no box.
Warn you the bass may not be as 'tight' as you may want, but setup is good enough for me.
Safe space? Not exactly as the subs are in your way.

For the rest of the email, I don't understand, so no comment.

So, what kind of setup do you have in mind?

 

[aDrIaN]

Sorry to butt in but i have been wantng to do my ICE since a long time ago. Where and how can i do it without my wifey pulling my head of and freezing my bank account, if u know what i mean.

 

[Vanquish]

PB,

The E39 IMO, is an excellent platform for ICE application thanks to its rock solid build quality and inherent cabin acoustics. The rather sizeable boot allows for a number of subwoofer installation - IB or free air being one of them. The only drawback of an IB install is that in most cases the bass quality/quantity may not match the output of a decent sealed/ported enclosure but it does leave you with the whole boot space for your other use. Just be careful when you pick the subs for IB installs as NOT all subs are designed for IB application and you'll need to ensure that the rear magnets of the sub are slim enough not to protrude too much into the boot.

Do remember that despite the superb sound proofing/insulation laid out at the factory, any IB install could benefit from additional sound proofing done as the idea of the IB install itself is to use the entire boot as a large pseudo sealed enclosure - which means any leaks or holes will have a detrimental effect on the bass reproduction. Just as important is the strengthening and sound proofing of the rear parcel shelf itself or the addition of another mounting platform for the subs as unwanted baffle resonance, vibration and flexing could ruin the entire installl itself. So, as you can see it's not as easy as just hanging a couple of subs to the rear parcel shelf if you're serious about getting it done right.

As for such installs, I believe a few 5ers have already done so and you could probably speak to them for pointers/feedback. Our stock alternators in general - whether a 3er/5er/7er are pretty strong and can easily accomodate a couple of amps without straining themselves too much. A simple set up could consists of a 4 channel amp for the front/rear speakers while a 2 channel amp (bridged) or a monoblock amp could take care of the subs. Adding a power capacitor into the mix would also be a good idea and help take some strain away from the alternator/battery.

So, the all important question at the end of the day would be - what exactly are you looking for and what sort of budget are you able to spare.

Regards,
VaN.

 

[publicbus]

vanquish - thanks for the info on the alternator capacity. At least now I dont have to worry about it.

astrocreep - I have heard of the less 'tight' bass produced by the air free subs from other threads too. I think if I were to go for a sub, I will go for the conventional box-enclosure unit.

A forumer has given me a few names available in Penang and I would check out next week. Will do some investigation with Golden first.

BTW, went to a shop nearby for some market survey. The boss there was confident of installing 6.5" for both the front and rear speakers. He recommded 6.5" Hertz component speakers (with individual cross-over) for the rear and MB-Quart for the front. Price plus some new cables - about RM 3K. I have taken out the door panel and just wonder how he is going to feed those 6.5" into them.
Have asked around my 3er friends and their feedback is that changing to better 5.5" would not improve much on the sound quality. Either change to 6.5" or dont change at all.
My plan:
1. Will look for an installer with experience on a e39 upgrade.
2. Will try out MB-quart 5.5" component speakers for both rear and front.
3. If the new 5.5" set up is not much difference from current setup, will go for the 6.5" speakers. Will forgo a sub if the 6.5" can produce satisfatory bass.
4. If the new 5.5" speakers have good clarity, then would add an amp for a 12" sub.

Just hope there is a willing experience installer who can accomodate my requirement.
Will update on this later this week.

 

[Vanquish]

PB,

Golden is a good place to start - most of my ICEr friends in PEN are regulars there and Uncle knows his stuff pretty well. There are just hordes of fake DLS / MB Quarts / Hertz in town so it pays to get them from a reputable shop and have them installed right. I'm equally as baffled on how a pair of 6.5 inch mids can be squeezed into the front door of a E39 without customs kicks too - keep us posted please. BTW, a good 5.5 inch mid bass unit will thrash a so-so 6.5 inch unit on any given day .... displacement alone is not the key factor in Sound Quality. As for the sub, a 10 or 12 inch unit in a sealed 0.75 or 1.00 cft enclosure will not take much boot space and provide you with ample bass reproduction.

Cheers,
VaN.

 

[publicbus]

Thanks for the re-assurance of Golden. Will update my 'adventure' there soonest.
Cheers

 

[publicbus]

Paid a visit to Golden just now. Both brothers were very friendly. Managed to experience a new installation (using Tru tech power amp, DSL speakers, Phoenix gold EQ, Pioneer player....) on a Waja who came all the way from KL!!!! Awesome... truly amazing. The cost? I estimate more than 15K. Anyway back to my e39. Take a look at MK-II but alas only have 6" component speakers. So were the DLS speakers.
Uncle recommended the following :
1. Power Amp - Tru Tech 4 channels
2. Sub - Bazooka 8" bass tube
3. Rear and front speakers - Focal 5 1/4" component (polyglass)
4. Equaliser - Phoenix gold 15 band
5. 2 sets RCA cables + local high-to-low adaptor + suitable silver wiring
They were even willing to swap sub to suit your hearing bud. Setup can be tested with and without an EQ.

Total expected damage = 5 figures (early side)

Will hit the calculator tonight.
Anyone experience with a bass tube sub before? Is it better than the conventional box type? ( I was told box type is cheaper) but slightly more space consuming.
Uncle said no need to cut anything at the rear for the bass to travel through....

 

[Vanquish]

PB,

That's a pretty nice set-up but I'd make some changes if I were you since you're spending a tidy sum of money there.

1. The Tru Tech amp that he's offering - is that the new Billet series or the old T series ? What's the power rating on those ? Any other options within the same price range ? Aim for a minimum of 4 x 50W RMS ( true wattage, not the hyped PMPO figures ) though more would be ideal!

2. Component speakers - I'm not a huge fan of Focals but the Polyglass are entry/mid level comps from Focal. What I'd do is switch the rears to a pair of co-axials for both cost and practicality reasons. In any set-up, the rear speakers act mainly as rear-fill unit and not main speakers. Can you imagine vocals coming from the back and front at the same time ? It's like having a band playing in front and at the back of you at the same time in a concert. The extra cash that I'd save from the switch will be channeled to front components - the most important set of drivers in any set-up. I'll aim a little higher and probably settle for the Focal K2P series comps instead with the extra cash.

The bass tube while being no match for a stand alone sub in a proper enclosure - will be adequate unless you're looking for some serious bass definition. That equals to an additional amp and a separate sub unit plus some loss in boot space real estate. There are a number of bass tube users here and most of them are pretty happy with their performance. It's pretty much an issue of personal taste and preference at the end of the day.

Cheers,
VaN.

 

[publicbus]

Vanquish - doing some cross-checking on the set up now. It is the B-475 (for the Tru tech amp). I think you have the same understanding as my friend pertaining to the rear speakers. Contacted a friend of mine whom has just upgraded his car audio system and he did not have any rear speakers at all. If we were to have rear speakers to act as fill in, any reccomendations to match the Focal 5" component in front?
The setup I heard at Golden had one small set back. The sub sounded a little hard. Not sure whether this is the initial sound which will soften over time or it will be that way forever. My preference is a 'soft' sub which drags the bass.

I am a little curios about the Golden reccomendations (may be I am a little ignorant). If the amp is a 4-channel unit, 2 channels will be reserved for the front speakers, 2 channels for the rear, what about the sub then?

I am pretty comfortable with Golden but will like to explore other combinations first.

 

[Vanquish]

Hi bro,

Yeah, that's the new Billet range from Tru all right - so you're getting a new model and not something that's discontinued already. I know a lot of people who have skipped the rear-fills and just focussed on getting the soundstage set up right up front - myself included. My own plan is to have a pair of 3 way drivers up front eventually - a pair of 7 inch mid bass, a pair of 3 inch mid range domes and a pair of tweeters backed up by a sub at the back.

However, if you ferry people around and would like to have some rearfill music to compliment the front staging, a pair of simple co-axials shud do the job nicely. I'm quite sure that the Focal Access or Polyglass range has a couple of co-axials in them - you might need to check on this as my knowledge of the Focal range is limited. Don worry too much about the sub and the type of sound you're aiming for - it's a good thing that you already know the type of sound you're aiming to create and this makes the installer's job a lot easier. A lot depends on the sub used and the enclosure design (sealed / ported / bandpass) but ultimately, with proper installation and tuning, it's easy to achieve a sound quality that suits your listening preference.

Not sure if the Bazooka is an active sub but the ones that I've seen are mainly passive - meaning that they'll need external amplification to work. You have a much easier task now if you opt for co-axials at rear fills - the front channels of the amp will handle your comps while the rear channels can be bridged for the sub duties. Your rear-fills can be driven off your HU's power since we don't need much power for rear fill application. Having said that, it's your choice and the system must appeal to your senses first foremost. Yeah, there's no harm in also shopping around and reviewing all other alternatives.

Regards,
VaN.

 

[publicbus]

Thanks Van. Would like to share with others an interesting forum for car audio :
www.gr8tunes.net

 

[Vanquish]

Yeah ... great place and quite a number of Racun Kings there. Just beware of some brand boners there ... really harmless folks if you know what you want and stick with it. Overall, a great place to learn of ICE and its many splendours and make some friends too!

Cheers,
VaN.

 

[yoke]

Just to share, Tru previously source their amp from Korea (made in Korea), now this people in Korea has come up with their own brand call Abyss for the medium range and the zelos for the high end (meet their engineer and designer when they came down a few month back)
Especially for the Tru 4.100, T-03, C7 and the Hammer range, all is abyss inside, if you open up the case.
So if you want the Tru range better go for the abyss as it is basically the same unit and will cost you much, much lower price than the billet.
If you decide to go for Tru amp, try matching it with the Dyn or CDT Eurosport. But I think the Eurosport will suit it the most as heard somewhere that Tru used the eurosport during testing or something...

But it's your money at the end of the day

 

[willy5]

Just to share some personal experience on subs and the e39,

Free air installation not recommended - no matter how soild the panels are on the e39 on higher volumes there is too much vibration and rattling. The sound quality changes too much as well depending on what you have in the boot e.g. soft bags, hard case luggage, golf bags, you can't be tuning the sub everytime you put something in the boot.

Bazooka bass tube + hole on the rear parcel shelf - if you don't make any openings in the rear parcel shelf, the bass and the rest of the music will seem somehow mismatched (timing and response) and insufficient in power delivery (remember it's only an 8"). The noise isolation of the e39 is very good and you just simply lose too much bass and I could not get the cross over frequency right as too much was being filtered off. If you are not bass crazy then this would do well.

Sub in a box and opening the hole in the rear parcel shelf, by far I found this to be the best set up (the price between the bazooka and this set up was negligibly more in cost, I ended up with Alpine sub and amp). You do loose some boot space but if need to you can remove the sub box.

The rear parcel shelf has 2 holes prepared, ready to be punched out (this was for the factory installed subs) so you are not really cutting the shelf and weaking the structure. You don't have to make any holes in the rear parcel shelf cover as it has vents so you don't see any changes from the inside of the car.

Another note, is that you might want get the signals to the sub amp from the rear speakers, this way you can control the volume of the sub from the head unit by adjusting the front and rear fader, otherwise you would be running to the boot to adjust the amp frequently unless you listen to the same CD all the time or need to run another set set of wires and install a potentiometer near the driver to control the volume of the sub.

 

[publicbus]

Just to share, Tru previously source their amp from Korea (made in Korea), now this people in Korea has come up with their own brand call Abyss for the medium range and the zelos for the high end (meet their engineer and designer when they came down a few month back)
Especially for the Tru 4.100, T-03, C7 and the Hammer range, all is abyss inside, if you open up the case.
So if you want the Tru range better go for the abyss as it is basically the same unit and will cost you much, much lower price than the billet.
If you decide to go for Tru amp, try matching it with the Dyn or CDT Eurosport. But I think the Eurosport will suit it the most as heard somewhere that Tru used the eurosport during testing or something...

But it's your money at the end of the day

Thanks bro. I am sure it is worth exploring the Korean brands. As for the Dyn or CDT Eurosport, will need to check whether they can fit into my limited space of e39 panels.

Does anyone know where I can take a look at Abyss or Zelos in Penang?

 

[publicbus]

Just to share some personal experience on subs and the e39,

Free air installation not recommended - no matter how soild the panels are on the e39 on higher volumes there is too much vibration and rattling. The sound quality changes too much as well depending on what you have in the boot e.g. soft bags, hard case luggage, golf bags, you can't be tuning the sub everytime you put something in the boot.

Bazooka bass tube + hole on the rear parcel shelf - if you don't make any openings in the rear parcel shelf, the bass and the rest of the music will seem somehow mismatched (timing and response) and insufficient in power delivery (remember it's only an 8"). The noise isolation of the e39 is very good and you just simply lose too much bass and I could not get the cross over frequency right as too much was being filtered off. If you are not bass crazy then this would do well.

Sub in a box and opening the hole in the rear parcel shelf, by far I found this to be the best set up (the price between the bazooka and this set up was negligibly more in cost, I ended up with Alpine sub and amp). You do loose some boot space but if need to you can remove the sub box.

The rear parcel shelf has 2 holes prepared, ready to be punched out (this was for the factory installed subs) so you are not really cutting the shelf and weaking the structure. You don't have to make any holes in the rear parcel shelf cover as it has vents so you don't see any changes from the inside of the car.

Another note, is that you might want get the signals to the sub amp from the rear speakers, this way you can control the volume of the sub from the head unit by adjusting the front and rear fader, otherwise you would be running to the boot to adjust the amp frequently unless you listen to the same CD all the time or need to run another set set of wires and install a potentiometer near the driver to control the volume of the sub.

yo willy5,
Do I remove 1 hole or 2 holes of the rear parcel shelf? How about your case?
By now, after reading the comments of forumers, the free air sub is defintely out for me. Just a consideration between a tube and box sub. I was contemplating Vanquish's suggestion to put a pair of coaxial speakers for the rears leaving the 2 amp channels for the sub. But what you have mentioned sounds interesting to.. getting the signals for the sub from the rear speakers and therefore able to contro the bass volume using 'fader' control. Thanks bro.

 

[willy5]

yo willy5,
Do I remove 1 hole or 2 holes of the rear parcel shelf? How about your case?
By now, after reading the comments of forumers, the free air sub is defintely out for me. Just a consideration between a tube and box sub. I was contemplating Vanquish's suggestion to put a pair of coaxial speakers for the rears leaving the 2 amp channels for the sub. But what you have mentioned sounds interesting to.. getting the signals for the sub from the rear speakers and therefore able to contro the bass volume using 'fader' control. Thanks bro.

Hi publicbus,

In my case I ended up with 1 x 8" hole. My story is below.... I just checked again and the punch outs are quite small (about 2" dia), not sure if these are enuf but I would remove both. You can have the holes made first then test the subs to see if you like what you hear before reinstalling the rear shelf board. If it seems weak compared to what you hear with the boot open, then have the installer cut a bigger hole. While the rear parcel shelf cover is out, make sure they line it (between the metal and the board) with some vibration absorbtion material (like polyester fill they use for lining the inside of the speaker box), this prevents the board from rattling.

I would have been happy with the tube subs actually. What happened to me was, I first bought the tube subs without cutting the holes and was not satisfied as the bass was out of sync and weak so I traded in the tubes for a free air mounted sub and had the hole cut which shook the passenger compartment crazy and was inconsistent as mentioned earlier, then ended up buying the box for the sub. Mostly my fault as I did not want to have the holes cut in the first place! So I spent more than necessary cost and time. Hope this will help

If you are not to fussed with getting really high end quality, you can power your front speakers (your choice to upgrade, I didn't) with the existing head unit, take the feed off the rear speakers to your sub amp (can be located next to the CD changer and power supply from the battery in the boot therefor min. wiring), and leave the rear speakers connected for rear fill sound. Again I'm no big time sound enthusiast so I am quite happy with this set up.

 

[publicbus]

Tested out a pair of entry level MB Quart 5.25" for the rear at a nearby shop. Better clarity but less bass than the stock units. Now I am not sure whether I would like the sound from a 5.25" speakers even if I go for a higher end 5.25". Checked with Golden and they are not sure the slim 6.5" K2P Focal can fit into the door panel. They recommended slim 6.5" Impact insead (with some modifications). They recommended component Impact NDW 6525.5 for the front and coaxial GNX 50 5.25" for the rear. Again, my problem is they have to order these units and if I do not like the sound later, I am stuck with them.
Looks like I need to check out with shops that have ready units to try out.......

 

[willy5]

Tested out a pair of entry level MB Quart 5.25" for the rear at a nearby shop. Better clarity but less bass than the stock units. Now I am not sure whether I would like the sound from a 5.25" speakers even if I go for a higher end 5.25". Checked with Golden and they are not sure the slim 6.5" K2P Focal can fit into the door panel. They recommended slim 6.5" Impact insead (with some modifications). They recommended component Impact NDW 6525.5 for the front and coaxial GNX 50 5.25" for the rear. Again, my problem is they have to order these units and if I do not like the sound later, I am stuck with them.
Looks like I need to check out with shops that have ready units to try out.......

Yo publicbus, if it is bass you are looking for, forget full range speakers or mids. just look at subs. If you need clarity then upgrade the speakers in front.