Can someone enlighten me on brakes please.

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GreenGhost

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Hi guys,I have to be honest. I know jacks about brakes. I am experiencing shuddering of the steering wheel even as i gently touch the brake pedal when im on the highway. Not too long ago, i had done my alignments and balancings. As such i assume that the discs are warped. You think so ?Like any others i thought i might as well pay a little bit more and get an aftermarket brand since i have to change discs anyway. THEN it all gets confusing.... Of course if i just stick to the originals there would be no problem. But where would the fun be in trying out new things. But there are so many products out there as well as so many opinions.Did a search on the forum, someone mentioned that he made a real mistake changing his braking system and he wished he had never touched them. Can someone teach me what is the worst that can occur? What mistakes can i make?Ookokok ... some technical questions that i hope someone can help me in.1. If i look for a disc/rotor (same, yes?), as long as it is OEM size, does that mean i dont have to change the calipers? Is it so simple to just replace the discs and matching brake pads?2. Any recommendations from people who have gone experimenting and found something really good?3. I am told i cant fit the E46 M3 disc on. But he couldnt explain it. Can someone who knows tell me why. Thanks all in advance! Oh oh oh yes .... almost forgot its for an E46 325i 2002 model.jOn
 
It really depends what you use your car for. Reputable aftermarket performance brakes typically cater more for track usage, where the brakes need time to warm up to get to its optimum temperature, but offers much better bite at very high temps for track use. Stock brakes will see more fade on the track but have much better initial bite when cold.

Personally I think that the stock BMW brakes are great for daily street driving. I have experimented a lot on brakes on previous cars, and found that BMW really emphasize on their braking systems on their cars. For the bucks i think its best value for $$$. Also note in the owners manual, that BMW warns against putting on aftermarket brakes, probably due to their DSC, ASC settings....
 
My 2 cents.

Your discs are probably wraped a bit.

If you wanna change to aftermarket discs, you can find ones are the same size, then you would not have to muck around with buying calipers as well.

If you want a good upgrade, i hear that the 330 brakes will be easier to fit than M3 ones, and much cheaper.

But if i were you, i tend to agree with e46fan, i would stick to originals.
Just get a stainless steel brake line kit, some EBC green pads ( get the latest compound ) and maybe some dot5.1 brake fluide and you'll experience much better braking performance for not much money.

Cheers.
 
Thanks for the quick replies. appreciate it...///.....

It is true in that " i dont need it ". just a little playful thats all but scared im playing with fire. Its brakes afterall man!

Ok more queries.

1. How do i know whether i warped my front or my rear discs? Does it matter? Does it mean i have to change all 4 discs now?

2. "Also note in the owners manual, that BMW warns against putting on aftermarket brakes, probably due to their DSC, ASC settings...." - Are you serious? That sounds awful. But if i buy the exact same size (OE size) as my factory size, does that mean i dont have this problem? Can someone pleeease explain why it affects DSC?

3. I also think that 330 brakes are a good idea but wont i have to source for the 330 calipers for this to work? And the shop told me its not easy finding them.

More chit chat guys?
 
Different discs and pads will have different coefficient of friction, and braking characteristics. DSC and ASC programs rely on the computer to apply brakes on individual wheels in the case of emergency and the computer knows how much to apply on each wheel... If the brakes have drastically different characteristics, it may not be suited for the DSC/ASC program?? Just an educated guess on why the manual says don't modify the brakes tho. Else BMW is hoping for more parts sales with the statement in the owners manual ;) .
 
Originally posted by adliz@Nov 9 2005, 07:57 PM
i got a pair of front 330 brakes for sale.. interested?
Wow, Adliz, going BBk ka? :D

Which route you going?
 
Thanks for the quick replies. appreciate it...///.....

It is true in that " i dont need it ". just a little playful thats all but scared im playing with fire. Its brakes afterall man!

Ok more queries.

1. How do i know whether i warped my front or my rear discs? Does it matter? Does it mean i have to change all 4 discs now?

Usually its the front rotors that warp, but its best to just get them skimmed. Your local garage can do that for you at a minimal fee. Probably need half a day. You only need to change your rotors if they have reached their allowable minimum thickness.


2. "Also note in the owners manual, that BMW warns against putting on aftermarket brakes, probably due to their DSC, ASC settings...." - Are you serious? That sounds awful. But if i buy the exact same size (OE size) as my factory size, does that mean i dont have this problem? Can someone pleeease explain why it affects DSC?

Ah, it is up to you on what mods you would like to do to your car. BMW does not endorse the fitment of 19" wheels on the E46, but we all do it anyways!
Same here with the brakes. you can go either way, still maintain the OEM brakes, or get aftermarket rotors (this method is not worth while because its still the same thing! but if you for slotted rotors, you will get a noise from the air in the slots when you drive, and if cross drilled, cracking!) or get a Big Brake Kit. But if you go BBK, i have been told to disengage my ABS as it may interfere with its operations, but so far no probs!
ACS is the traction control, the engine gets a fuel cut if the rear wheels break traction, so what does that have to do with the brakes?



3. I also think that 330 brakes are a good idea but wont i have to source for the 330 calipers for this to work? And the shop told me its not easy finding them.

330 brakes are bigger than 325 brakes. So they will work better! Since the rotors are a larger diameter, you will need the calipers too. 330 brakes, even the mighty M3 brakes are single pot all around!, BBK gets 4 pots all around!

More chit chat guys?

For those that say that BBK are rubbish and are only designed for the track and is not suitable for the road. I believe they have not had on-hands experience at all. Once you have fitted BBKs on your ride, you will wonder how you ever managed on the OEM stuff!
 
wahlau daniel.. syiok aa the uuc bbk? went to singapore last weekend.. i saw three e46 318 with bbks!! all sorts.. stoptech, apracing, alcon, brembo.. no uuc though.. ;)

330 brakes, very, very good..!! can even brake at 100m point on the sepang straight, doing 190kmh (meter reading ok? dun flame me aa necc? :D) the only gripe is that it'd fade after 2 time attack laps! hehe.. so, for your daily/highway driving, definitely more than enuff..

btw, i got a pair to sell
 
wah adam.........you brake hogger!!!!!

2 pairs summore......too bad i have the M3 setup else, it would be on my car already........!!!!
 
Originally posted by adliz@Nov 10 2005, 12:40 AM
wahlau daniel.. syiok aa the uuc bbk? went to singapore last weekend.. i saw three e46 318 with bbks!! all sorts.. stoptech, apracing, alcon, brembo.. no uuc though.. ;)

330 brakes, very, very good..!! can even brake at 100m point on the sepang straight, doing 190kmh (meter reading ok? dun flame me aa necc? :D) the only gripe is that it'd fade after 2 time attack laps! hehe.. so, for your daily/highway driving, definitely more than enuff..

btw, i got a pair to sell
damn shiok Adliz!

UUC.... well, cheaper than AP, Brembo, StopTech...... so for the same money i can get larger diameter brakes! :yes:

Come la to Penang for the BBQ this weekend i give you demo.

No matter how hard you hit the brakes or how often, the car just stops, i fear the only let down now is the tires and my stuff flying everywhere in the car!

So, what BBK you getting?
 
Originally posted by Daniel@Nov 9 2005, 10:23 AM
ACS is the traction control, the engine gets a fuel cut if the rear wheels break traction, so what does that have to do with the brakes?
Here's your answer.... The flashy lights on the dash is only second stage ASC+T. First stage where the brakes are active to help you plant out of the corner is not indicated on the ASC light on the dash... Pretty interesting stuff..

http://www.bmwworld.com/technology/asct.htm


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The hydraulic control unit has four channels. The ABS-only unit has three channels, only one for both rear wheels. Separate rear channels are required for individual control of rear wheel spin. (This could also mean that the ASC + T system has even better braking performance).

The ASC + T control unit has a high-speed (CAN) data link to the main engine control unit, and has control of a throttle actuator motor. This allows it to reduce engine power.

There is a dashboard switch that allows the ASC + T to be disabled (but the ABS functions remain active).

The ASC + T system determines that a wheel is spinning by comparing the rear wheels' speed to the front. Also, there is probably a maximum wheel acceleration threshold built into the system.

The ASC + T system intervenes in two stages: When it detects one rear wheel near the threshold of adhesion, it starts to rapid pulse the brake to that wheel (just like ABS). When the second rear wheel nears the limit of adhesion, engine power is reduced.

The first stage (single wheel braking) actually improves vehicle performance. The second stage (engine reduction) doesn't improve performance available, but it adjusts output so that all that is available is fully utilized.

The dashboard ASC + T light only flashes when the system enters the second stage, and is reducing engine power. It doesn't flash when the system is only braking a wheel about to slip. This can be demonstrated most easily in the snow. By using the dashboard button to turn ASC + T on and off, it becomes immediately apparent that it is assisting traction even when the light doesn't come on.

The first stage can apply braking power in two levels. From 0 to 25MPH, a high level of braking force is pulsed to a wheel about to slip. >From 25MPH to 62MPH, a reduced level of braking force is used (this is both to reduce brake heating, as well as to smooth out operation). Above 62MPH the brakes aren't applied, and the first stage is inactive.

I think the system overall works extremely well. It makes accelerating on slippery or uneven surfaces a piece of cake. It offers a tremendous safety margin by intervening if you apply the gas too hard in a corner. It's much harder to get the car to snap around this way (the balanced weight distribution also is a big improvement over the E30 3-series). It allows much more power to get to the ground when taking off around a corner.

The drawbacks to this system are that it isn't fully operational at high speeds, and that it sometimes intervenes too harshly for 'enthusiastic' driving.

With either a regular or a limited slip differential, if you get a little too hot on the power in a corner, the back end will start to come around. If you catch it quick enough, you can adjust the power so that the car doesn't spin, but still keep the suspension loaded up, maintaining an oversteering attitude. This can be the quickest way through a corner.

With ASC + T, if you get to the point of the back coming around, the system will really shut down the power. It keeps you safe, but you've just lost your speed and suspension attitude through the corner. It is for this reason that most people turn it off for track use.

I've found that this problem can be overcome to a degree by driving style. Remember that the first stage of ASC + T intervention (pulsing a brake) actually helps the car get through a corner faster. It's the second stage (engine power reduction) that needs to be avoided. The best approach is to read a corner accurately so that you get into it just right. I'll be the first to admit that it's very difficult to do this with consistency.

Another thing that I've found by experiment is that the sensitivity of the ASC + T system varies. The firmware appears to be adaptive, that is, it readjusts itself based on past experience. If I can take several corners in succession where just the first intervention stage occurs, each one can be taken harder. I've actually gotten it to the point where I can get some pretty major oversteer going, with the back end really coming around to help me walk it around tight corners. The great thing is that I'm getting a lot of extra traction from the first stage. It's like driving a limited slip with a very high degree of lock-up.

The thing is, once I a have a corner where I've pushed it too hard so that the system kicks in, the threshold sensitivity goes way back up, so I have to have several more 'good' corners before the system readjusts itself to where I like it. In other words, if one corner doesn't go so good, the next ones have to suffer too. I sure wish there was a switch on the dashboard with one position for normal driving, and another position for a 'sport' mode with a higher engine cutback threshold.

I almost always drive with ASC + T enabled. With practice, I've found that I can get through corners as well, or better than with it switched off. I like the extra margin of safety it provides. I also think that because it forces me to read corners better and drive smoother to prevent it from shutting down the power, it helps me to learn to be a better driver. I haven't had this car on the track yet. I'll have to admit that it's entirely possible that I'll join the crowd and turn it off there.

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