E36 Anti Roll Bar

[anxious]

Here we go again!

The cost of upgrading the ARB+bushes to MTech is half of the costs of upgrading the Shocks/Springs.

The Mtech ARB+ normal bushes should cost a little over RM1.6k.

The Eibach/Bilstein combo with all the absorber mountingetc would cost almost RM4k.

Therefore on paper the Mtech ARB upgrade looks attractive. Thats why I need to know whether anyone has done this on a stock suspension set up?

I just came across this post:-

"ARB are rated on thickness, which is expressed in either mm or inches (or fractions thereof). Watch out though as a few mm or 16th of an inch can double the stiffness of the bar. Reason is that stiffness increases as a fourth power of change in diameter ie you multiply the diameter 4 times to get the stiffness. Best to work it out in mm. eg a 22mm bar gives an end value of 234256 while a 26mm bar gives 456976 (26x26x26x26) basically nearly twice as stiff!"

Therfore could uprating my present 24mm(F)/15mm(R) to MTech's 25.5mm(F)&18mm(R) have the desired effect of better handling on my stock suspension?

 

[anxious]

Anyone here realised, the front Mtec ARB is actually smaller than the ori? Big is not necessary better, but one has to decide what you want the car to be like? Understeer at the limit? Oversteer? Neutral? Then only you decide on the ARB size.

Cheers

You may be mistaken.M Tech ARB is different than the M3 ARB. M Tech @ M Teknik is a phrase used in Europe and means Sport as its known in the US.

The front M Tech ARB is 25.5mm wherelse standard 325/328 is 24mm.

M3 is smaller as "328 sport does not have the same suspension as M. Not sure about struts, but non-M sport has different springs that lower about 1/2" all around (supposed to be higher spring rate as well) and thicker sway bars than non-sport E36. M sway bars are actually thinner than both because they mount to strut rather than and therefore are able to apply more leverage."


see http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=972272&highlight=sway+bar

 

[anxious]

see http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=928997&highlight=sway+bar

 

[wc9922]

You may be mistaken.M Tech ARB is different than the M3 ARB. M Tech @ M Teknik is a phrase used in Europe and means Sport as its known in the US.

The front M Tech ARB is 25.5mm wherelse standard 325/328 is 24mm.

M3 is smaller as "328 sport does not have the same suspension as M. Not sure about struts, but non-M sport has different springs that lower about 1/2" all around (supposed to be higher spring rate as well) and thicker sway bars than non-sport E36. M sway bars are actually thinner than both because they mount to strut rather than and therefore are able to apply more leverage."


see http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=972272&highlight=sway+bar

You forget to search the Wikipedia for more self-satisfying answers to your question.:stupido2:

 

[ALBundy]

You may be mistaken.M Tech ARB is different than the M3 ARB. M Tech @ M Teknik is a phrase used in Europe and means Sport as its known in the US.

The front M Tech ARB is 25.5mm wherelse standard 325/328 is 24mm.

M3 is smaller as "328 sport does not have the same suspension as M. Not sure about struts, but non-M sport has different springs that lower about 1/2" all around (supposed to be higher spring rate as well) and thicker sway bars than non-sport E36. M sway bars are actually thinner than both because they mount to strut rather than and therefore are able to apply more leverage."


see http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=972272&highlight=sway+bar

Oops, sorry me bad. Was referring to the M sway bar.

If you take a look at the normal e36 front sway bar, you can actually mount it on the strut as well. On stock standard cars, its mounted on the control arm (with stabilizer link listed as item 7 below), all you need is to change the stabilizer link to the longer one (like those used in the E34, item 6 on the diagram below). This I have done, and I didnt feel much difference (there is a lot of opinion from the internet experts nowadays)

So the question remains, why the M strut is actually thinner than stock? On the e46, the front Mtech sway bar is also thinner than stock (with exact mounting locations to stock sway bar as well).

I think you should try to understand the working principles of the ARBs in relation to traction, suspension travel, droop distance and cornering forces before you decide on your course of action. But since you don't track much if any at all, a set of Eibach springs will fit into you requirement nicely.

Cheers

 

[fabianyee]

try www.whiteline.com.au for the antiroll bars..

u can import direct if you got jalan to pay less taxes or get from local dealer pentagon (if they are still around)...

MTECH parts are more expensive lah.. sure takut looking at the price...

 

[cempaka]

I thought we already went over this? Just because it looks good on paper (only by being cheaper) doesn't mean it will be good in real world driving. My own guess is that it will feel like it "handles better" during slower speed driving but will be somewhat less stable and less safe during fast cornering and slippery conditions. Whether that's what youre looking for is your call.

Now I could be wrong about that but there's probably a good reason you've had trouble finding people with thick ARBs on stock suspension. Eibach may have told you different, but remember they're trying to sell their product. Since you're new to modding keep in mind you need to take what all aftermarket companies say with a grain of salt. I doubt Eibach will be there to help if you oversteer into a ditch or rip an ARB mount.

Being an obsessive type, wouldn't you rather do it right from the beginning? Trust me, suspension tuning to an obsessive personality is like petrol to fire. In the end though, I think it's pretty obvious you're dead set on some new ARBs no matter what anyone says, so just let us know how it goes. :top:

 

[Jipster]

Dear Mr fretful/uneasy,

If you dont mind going local you can ask ultraracing for their price. For E30 its 1k all in with install thats cheaper than eibach or even whitelines. Do they work? They work just fine for me (23mm fr; 16mm rear). They are not adjustable though and I dont think you get PU bushes with their set.... but then PU bushes can be sourced eg Hokomoto superpro type and they should be about 100 or so bucks per set so not too big an issue... just make sure they get greased well or they may squeek

As to sizes, I think as long as the % increase at the back is more than the % increase at the front you are ok.

as to ride comfort - i think thats mainly a function of your spring shock set up. If they are super stiff then larger ARBs will mean possible loss of independent suspension movement as the 2 sides are linked - bottom line, what this means is on really rough broken roads you might lose traction. But i doubt again whether this will be a problem.

as to whther you need bigger arb - well, my hijacker friends asked me ... how much roll do I experience with my mtech set up (219/20mm(?) fr; 14.5mm rr)? I said not much. Then I went and got the ultracings anyway. Guess what I found out? WOW! Improvement can be felt/ and I dont need a GTech Pro to tell me that. Trust me, even if you dont track the car you will appreciate the feeling. Its an excellent upgrade option.

but hey, there will be those among you that will say - what the fcuk does this guy know anyway... he doesnt even track his car or know his heel from his toe........well I may not track my car and I'm no racing driver, but I know my car and I know what I like and I like my ultraracings very much LOL!!

 

[loafer]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sway_bar

I'm no expert with this but I was always under the impression that one shouldn't tinker with your ARB without first upgrading the absorber + springs.

From what I see, it seems that you're making the decision purely based on the cost. ARB alters your car handling characteristics in a way that is hardly noticeable for a daily town driven car. As ALBundy mentioned earlier, upgrading your springs would give you a more immediate improvement in handling as compared to changing your ARB.

I personally feel that stock ARB is good enough for daily commuting and it's actually a waste of $$$ if you don't track your car.

 

[ALBundy]

As to sizes, I think as long as the % increase at the back is more than the % increase at the front you are ok.

This is Rule Number 1.

But make sure you know, what's the limit. If front too thin and rear too thick, then its a recipe for disaster to some, and Fun to some. One man's meat could be another man's poison

as to ride comfort - i think thats mainly a function of your spring shock set up. If they are super stiff then larger ARBs will mean possible loss of independent suspension movement as the 2 sides are linked - bottom line, what this means is on really rough broken roads you might lose traction. But i doubt again whether this will be a problem.

Thicker ARB will restrict suspension movement and hence on uneven surface, there will definitely be lesser traction (duration of tire contact with ground is lessened). So yes, you will lose traction in some situation.

Jip, I have owned an e30 before. Difference in ARB settings are more pronounced on the E30 than the E36, mainly because the e36 suspension are more advanced with the multi-link design and hence the stock ARBs are more than adequate to meet most users' requirements.

Cheers :love:

 

[loafer]

try www.whiteline.com.au for the antiroll bars..

u can import direct if you got jalan to pay less taxes or get from local dealer pentagon (if they are still around)...

MTECH parts are more expensive lah.. sure takut looking at the price...

LOL, I like the tagline for Whiteline's Sway Bars "Our Bars Stay Harder for Longer" :listen:

HAHAHHA

 

[fabianyee]

From what I see, it seems that you're making the decision purely based on the cost.

Ah... U've seen the light.....:rock:

Anxious, you should have been an accountant instead.. hehe

Best is it do it properly once and for all.. Spend a bit more for something that have been tried and tested by an end-user. Don't read too much on what the manufacturer claims. That's marketing...

 

[Jipster]

This is Rule Number 1.

But make sure you know, what's the limit. If front too thin and rear too thick, then its a recipe for disaster to some, and Fun to some. One man's meat could be another man's poison



Thicker ARB will restrict suspension movement and hence on uneven surface, there will definitely be lesser traction (duration of tire contact with ground is lessened). So yes, you will lose traction in some situation.

Jip, I have owned an e30 before. Difference in ARB settings are more pronounced on the E30 than the E36, mainly because the e36 suspension are more advanced with the multi-link design and hence the stock ARBs are more than adequate to meet most users' requirements.

Cheers :love:

Cool mate. I would have to qualify my experience is limited to ARB application in an E30 not an E36.

In that case I would go with Eibach's simply because thats Lee's set up. Its excellent. Dude you should ask to meet up and try out his ride. If I know him he wont mind (sorry ah boss) its just that he may be a bit on the busy side nowadays. In my opinion as close to perfect as you can get (he also has KMacs installed but thats another story).

You also have to consider your tires.... super sticky or progressive type or comfort. Coz everything you do to your set up will be translated by the tires coz its your link to the road. .... Depends on your driving style I guess. I like super sticky coz I got no skill so I lean on the tires to offset my lack of skill

 

[anxious]

Barring some name calling you guys have been most hepful and informative.

Since getting my 325, my driving has become a bit more spirited. I take the winding road on the Vale of Temp to my house almost everyday.

I hv even started organising monthly b'fast and drive to the Teluk Bahang dam with ny friends who own BMWs. I have about 6-7 guys now and the group is growing. We are even planning a round island trip cum durian feast!

Hence my interest in upgrading the suspension.

I have changed all the mountings and bushes that needed replacing. I have also changed the tie rod. I even got the car inspected in AB Pg for RM150+ to check whether I needed to change any parts.

Anyways we Penangites have a reputation of being very cost conscious. Although I am not Hokkein, I guess its rubbed on.

As I got new Black Bilsteins last year and have only done 17000km on them I was thinking of what else I could do w/o needing to change the shocks.

I was thinking of Eibach springs but was concerned whether it would go along with lowered springs since Bilstein itself suggest B8 for lowered cars.

Thats how I started to think about ARBs. I was thinking of Eibach until my mech's asst suggested second hand mtech for the front. That started me researching on ARBs and Mtech in particular.

The rest you have read in my various postings.

Anyway thanks for all your input. I am sure anyone reading these threads would have gain some knowledge as suspension uppgrades etc.

As for me, the jury is still out.

 

[cempaka]

I don't remember reading any name calling in this thread? Seemed everyone that replied was genuinely interested in helping you avoid any pitfalls.

Anyways, take your time and think through what you want to do. If you haven't already, I suggest you swing by howstuffworks.com and some other sites and read up on how suspension components work. And just remember cost conscious is fine when you're looking for some prawn mee. Not so great when setting up a suspension that you'll be driving through the twisties with.

 

[elwine30]

Well, i think it's your choice bro. To me, E36 is good enough as stock standard. I remmeber one old forumerer, he went all the way to lower, change shocks, big rims and etc etc. Then at the end, he went back to stock standard tires and shocks.

But before we go into modifying, do you feel is there any need to improve the handling? you want stiffer suspension, more grip, less roll, more planted... so, based on your current setup, what do you feel that you need to improve on?

 

[anxious]

Thks Elwine.

I hv driven my friend's 325 which has 16in rims Eibach spring/Bilstein Yellow set up and it was much better than my present car. I am going to try a back to back test drive to compare b4 I decde.

Basically I hv 2 choices:-

i) upgrade ARB to either Eibach or M tech bars on my prsent springs/absorber and get Eibach spring/Bilstein yellow when my present set up gives way; or

ii) change Eibach spring/ Bilstein Yellow( in which case I'll probably wait till my present suspension ages more)

Thanks again

 

[elwine30]

Well, Anxious. When i test drive cars, it feels nice because the grass is greener over the other side. But once you put it in and everything settles, you will find you might not like it. Driving it for a stretch or even for a day won't give you the "real" feeling.

To me, it has to be what you want from your current ride. Do you want stiffer suspension, lowered look, and less body roll. But all this, will need to sacrifice comfort (a bit) and introduce a bit more rigidness into your car body.

Furthermore, doing all the above doesn't do justice unless u upgrade your rims and tires. So, it's either 16 or 17.

Then comes the big picture where you need to decide the theme for your car. AC, M, Alpina, Hartge or all of the above.

 

[loafer]

Thks Elwine.

I hv driven my friend's 325 which has 16in rims Eibach spring/Bilstein Yellow set up and it was much better than my present car. I am going to try a back to back test drive to compare b4 I decde.

Basically I hv 2 choices:-

i) upgrade ARB to either Eibach or M tech bars on my prsent springs/absorber and get Eibach spring/Bilstein yellow when my present set up gives way; or

ii) change Eibach spring/ Bilstein Yellow( in which case I'll probably wait till my present suspension ages more)

Thanks again

Anxious,

Option i) in your list should come after option ii) is done. But like I've said before and I will repeat here again, for daily driving stock ARB is more than perfect and there really isn't a need to change to one of the aftermarket ones unless you track your car very often.

Again, the best option I see for you right now is an aftermarket lowering spring. That should give you the best improvement in handling over upgrading your ARB anytime.

cheers,
loafer

 

[fabianyee]

There's been a lot of advises dished out but frankly speaking, u'll be better off not putting your feet into it if you intend to emphasize so much on the $$$ part of it. Wait till your shock see its life end and then get the match springs+shocks combo... Or you can still get the lowered springs now and use with current shocks.

Forgot about the ARB for now. However, if you do intend to get the ARB first, don't say we didn't warn you on the possible ill effects of getting stiffer anti-roll bars without stiffer springs..

The choice is yours to make... Cos we don't drive your car....